Looking to upgrade. I examined reports on numerous websites andconcluded from the reports that while a SLRlike camera can produce agreat print and that they may somewhat improve on the S40sshortcomings I may still be left with significant shortcomings inthose areas and massive shortcomings at higher ISOs. That leavesSLRs. Reading the same website reports it seems for me it comesdown to Sony, Canon and Nikon..

- and Pentax and Olympus. Must have been a strange website that did not include these. The Pentax K10D in particular has won a lot of accolades..

I believe IS is the way to go. In camera (IS), the Sony appears tobe the choice over Olympus and Pentax..

Says who (and on what grounds)? The Sony, Olympus E510 and Pentax (K100D and K10D) all have in-body image stabilisation and it works fine on all of them. I am not aware of a test that pitches the image stabilisation capabilities of these against each other... doesn't mean there isn't one though!.

The Pentax K100D Super couldbe intriguing, but with observed weak AF performance and only 6MP,its hard to swallow..

I have a K100D and the autofocus works fine. AF is as much a function of the lens as the camera; with an f/5.6 lens in poor light it hunts a lot, but that will be generally true..

'Only' 6MP - many people never ask themselves how much resolution they actually need. How big are you going to print your pictures? 6MP will give you an A3 or 15 x 10 inch print at a resolution higher than the human eye can resolve. Unless you want to print bigger, there is a positive advantage to sticking with 6MP because the larger pixels on the sensor (compared to a 10MP sensor of the same size) each collect more light so you get less noise and hence better image quality at high ISO. A 10MP sensor does have higher resolution, but the higher noise requires more smoothing, which involves averaging adjacent pixels... i.e. loss of resolution at high ISO..

Cheap and mid-range lenses can't resolve 10MP anyway. The Canon Rebel XTi is a case in point: a very popular 10MP camera with a cheap lens that produces fuzz at the edges. Much better, on a fixed budget, to save money by getting 6MP (Pentax K100D, Nikon D40) and put the money saved towards a good lens. The files from a 6MP camera are also smaller and quicker to process. By all means pay the premium for a 10MP camera, as you'll probably get some extra features as well, but don't imagine that it will make any noticeable difference to your prints unless they are enormous, and even then you'd need a magnifying glass..

The K10D appears to be too fussy and doesnthave pre-set scene modes that an educated novice like me still likesto have..

Nor does the Nikon D200. What are you after? A P&S or a DSLR? The K10D has won some major awards recently and is very well regarded in it's price range. I recall a 'head to head' review with the Nikon D80 in which the Pentax came off better. If you want scene modes, The K100D has plenty (as does the Nikon D40 and Canon XTi)..

In lens IS, that leaves the big 2 Canon and Nikon.Problem is neither currently makes an inexpensive IS walkaround lens.Canon makes the 17-85 in an IS, but it's $500. Nikon doesnt have anequivalent VR lens with the closest being the 18-200 VR at $750.Both have reasonably priced IS zoom lenses, though I think the nodgoes to Nikon on price/quality there. Based on reports, I concludethat Canon and Nikon have the edge over Sony in net overallperformance (XTi and D80). So do I suck up the extra $400 for theCanon IS walkaround lens? Anyone have an updated timeframe on whenthe less expensive 18-55 Canon IS will be available (other than justOctober)? Do I just wait for that to come out? Ultimately, I lookto have the wide zoom, a telezoom and a fast 50/60 prime (forportrait like shots). Shots to be taken vary from indoor flash orlower light no flash to outdoor action (soccer etc). Id like to beable to get indoor hockey, but thats a $1000 plus zoom Im notprepared to get at this time.



Overall... don't get too hung up on equipment. All of the cameras from all five manufacturers are very good and do the same thing in more or less the same way. You can get a wide zoom, a telezoom and a fast prime lens in any of the standard flavours, these are common. You can always wait for the next big thing to come out ... and keep waiting.

If you get a camera now and start practising with it, the benefit to your photographic skills will be much greater than the advantage you get from a shinier piece of kit in a few months..

Best wishesMike..

Many thanks for the comments. The evaluations I had, which included the major brands offerings were based on reviews here, imaging resource, dcresource, steves-digicam etc. Part of the quandary is the tests, detailed as they are, may not be indicative necessarily of real world image quality and probably call out details not really relevant to a typical consumer. However focus speed and white balance are pretty easy to detect..

This is what caused my K100D comments. This from imaging resource gave me pause My only other bugaboo with the K100D was it's often slow and indecisive AF in low light. Low light means typical room lighting indoors. I've never seen a camera play for so long to finally lock focus. Pop up the flash as AF assist, and things speed back up. Just an FYI, not a deal killer; though if you're doing a lot of toddler photography, get a flash.

Dcresource Focus speeds are decent in good light, but on the slow side in dim light. Despite this sluggishness, the K100D does not focus consistently in low light. Perhaps it's not as bad as it sounds, but it doesnt sound good..

The Nikon D40, D40X requires special lenses for AF so I was thinking D80. However Nikons offering of VR lenses isnt that great so thats what was creating the Nikon Canon quandary..

I agree MP isnt everything but it is easy to get sucked in by it. Regarding if Im looking for a P&S vs a dSLR, while I may fiddle with the settings, I need it to act well as a P&S so my wife can easily use it. It has to focus fast and nearly every time or we dont improve upon what we have..

The K100D super with added dust removal and more lens support would be very appealing if I thought the AF worked...

You should also consider what kind of shots you are going to take..

IS is a great technology, but the shorter the focal length gets, the more specialised the applications become..

If you want to take photos of people, you don't want to drop below 1 / 30s - 1 / 50s. This means that you should be able to shoot up to 30 mm without much camera shake. If the people are moving you might want to decrease the exposure to 1/100s or more, which should cover most of the normal focal lengths..

Of course there are many situations in which IS can still be usefull, for example Landscape fotography at dusk or dawn without a tripod, fotographing static subjects in poor light or if you want to have motion blur..

Why do you feel the need for an IS walkaround lens?.

Bye,Philip..

Hi Phil,.

Thanks for the thoughts. Given the potential outlay, I'd like to maximize the number of "good" shots, particularly when why wife uses it as she is perhaps less particular or meticulous at holding the camera, though she still tries to use the zoom. I thought IS in an everyday wide zoom lens in typical kit lengths would be beneficial. Further comments?.

Thanks..

Rex..

Hi again.

Part of the quandary isthe tests, detailed as they are, may not be indicative necessarilyof real world image quality and probably call out details not reallyrelevant to a typical consumer..

I'd agree with that!.

This is what caused my K100D comments. This from imaging resourcegave me pause My only other bugaboo with the K100D was it's oftenslow and indecisive AF in low light. Low light means typical roomlighting indoors. I've never seen a camera play for so long tofinally lock focus. Pop up the flash as AF assist, and things speedback up. Just an FYI, not a deal killer; though if you're doing a lotof toddler photography, get a flash.

Dcresource Focus speeds are decent ingood light, but on the slow side in dim light. Despite thissluggishness, the K100D does not focus consistently in low light.Perhaps it's not as bad as it sounds, but it doesnt sound good..

Depends what you're comparing it to I suppose. I regularly take pictures indoors in ordinary room light at ISO 800 or 1600 and have no problems. But more exalted cameras will be faster and if that's what a reviewer is used to the K100D would no doubt seem slow..

The Nikon D40, D40X requires special lenses for AF so I was thinkingD80. However Nikons offering of VR lenses isnt that great sothats what was creating the Nikon Canon quandary..

You're right about the D40/D40x but there are now a lot of lenses that have the necessary motors built in (which apparently makes for quicker and quieter focussing). Apart from several Nikon AF-S lenses, Sigma are releasing versions of their popular zooms like the 17-70 and 55-200 which are compatible with the D40/D40x and more are becoming available all the time. Lack of motorised lenses for these cameras isn't an issue any more unless you want something esoteric..

But if you can run to it the D80 is great - it's not a lot more than the D40x. So fi you're happy wtih 6MP go for the D40, but if you want 10MP it's worth paying the premium over the D40x to get the D80..

I agree MP isnt everything but it is easy to get sucked in by it.Regarding if Im looking for a P&S vs a dSLR, while I may fiddle withthe settings, I need it to act well as a P&S so my wife can easilyuse it. It has to focus fast and nearly every time or we dontimprove upon what we have..

Fair point!.

The K100D super with added dust removal and more lens support wouldbe very appealing if I thought the AF worked..

Well.. in my experience it does work fine, and if the light is very poor and you're using flash, the flash acts as an AF-assist lamp anyway. But if you are considering cameras of the price of the D80, the K10D is porbably what you would want to consider rather than the K100D.

If dust removal is an important feature for you, the Canon XTi and Olympus E510 are worth a look (but avoid the very poor Canon kit lens - pay extra for a Sigma 17-70)..

So for the features you want:.

Shake reduction - Pentax, Olympus and Sony have it in-body (much cheaper in teh long run). Canon/Nikon require more expensive IS lenses. great if you can afford them..

Low-light performance: avoid the Olympus series which have smaller sensors than all the others. 6MP will give you less high-ISO noise than a 10MP sensor the same size, all other things being equal..

Dust removal: Pentax K100D-super or K10D (not the basic K100D), Olympus, Canon XTi. It is said to be particularly effective on the new Olympus models..

Good luckMike..

Some thoughts-.

Autofocus speed. the nikons and canons are faster than pentax BUT the n+c are also known to be less accurate also the c+n after achieving the intial focus will on more than just a few times refocus and refocus. the pentax dslrs do not refocus they be a hair slower but are dead accurate the furts and only time they do focus..

K10d soft jpegs. they are soft BY DESIGN of the pentax enginneers. they wanted in the jpeg natural mode to allow for pp, they never intended to give a finished product of a jpeg. reading the pentax dslr forum you will find that users have adjusted the contrast and saturation to their liking and simply use the sharpening at the neutral position. they do their sharpening in the pc, which is what pentax intended. all that is necessary in the pc is to use pe or cs2-3 and hit auto sharpen, or if wish more elaborate methods use the unsharp mask and adjust to your liking.

There is more detail in the pentax jpegs. but the other 2 look better due to the in camera sharpening. but once the pentax is sharpened in the pc they come out ahead of the equiv c+n. check this website's pentax dslr forum for more info on this.the k10d also has a better feature set than everybody else..

On IS. the pentax is in camera this means that every lens you put on it is IS and you do not pay hundreds of dollars more on each lens. the better pentx glass can compete with anyone. there is also the matter of lens compatibility. there is currently 24MILLION lens that work on pentax dslrs. n+c only go back in time a few yrs.

You can also use screw mount pentax lens with an adapter..

Strongly suggest you do some more background reading. in reading reviews remind yourself from what point of view are speaking from? they are not neutral, even from this web site...

Image Stabilisation alone is not a good reason to buy a particular brand of camera; we managed quite well in the past without it and can still do so today. I see it as something that permits dim cheapo lenses to be used where they really ought not to be, or as a help to someone with shaky hands. It will do nothing special to stop fast subject motion either..

You'll get much, much better image quality with something like a Tamron 28-75 or one of the manufacturers' f2.8 lenses. Visit PBase.com or Flikr.com and take a look at shots taken on various lenses - shots of the kind that you'll be taking. Look at photodo.com as well for comparative lens lists..

Don't dismiss Pentax DSLRs, they are amongst the best not least because of the huge number of legacy lenses available (likewise Sony with the Minolta mount which they acquired.).

In fact none of the entry level DSLRs are 'bad', just some are nicer to use than others due to better ergonomics and viewfinders etc..

If you're nervous about getting into the wrong system then buy Canon or Nikon which are easier to trade out of because a majority of users like them..

If I had to get another DSLR tomorrow I think it would be a Nikon even without IS..

Lastly, is there any sound reason why you couldn't be happy with a Panasonic Fz50?.

John.Please visit me at:http://www.pbase.com/johnfr/backtothebridge..

Follow the Dell link here and the K10D with lens is probably a steal at $719. However I find it hard to swallow that I have to shoot in RAW and convert every image to get something useable and not overly soft. It doesn't make sense and honestly I just don't have the time to do it. Will it shoot RAW and JPEG simultaneously?.

The camera has to be useful on AUTO because my wife will not fuss with it. The review here and elsewhere suggests that it is not the camera for that. I could live without the preset scenes that the others provide since I would be the one using them and would take the time to set it manually otherwise. Since all the dSLRs struggle with incandescent WB, I can't fault it for that...

Follow the Dell link here and the K10D with lens is probably a stealat $719. However I find it hard to swallow that I have to shoot inRAW and convert every image to get something useable and not overlysoft. It doesn't make sense and honestly I just don't have the timeto do it. Will it shoot RAW and JPEG simultaneously?.

You are right that this camera is aimed squarely at the 'serious amateur' (or above) who wants to optimise the pics in PP, hence the lask of scene modes and the assumption that the user will want to apply sharpening etc. at their discretion on the PC. But you don't, have to do it this way if you don't want to... you can shoot in JPEG and turn up the presets for sharpening, saturation etc. to give a pleasing result direct from the camera on point-n-shoot full auto mode if you prefer..

It has a useful button on the body that allows you to toggle between JPEG only and RAW+JPEG; so, yes, it can do both if you want at the push of a button..

The camera has to be useful on AUTO because my wife will not fusswith it. The review here and elsewhere suggests that it is not thecamera for that..

Can perfectly well be used like that if you want - see above.

I could live without the preset scenes that theothers provide since I would be the one using them and would take thetime to set it manually otherwise. Since all the dSLRs struggle withincandescent WB, I can't fault it for that..

They only 'struggle' with incadescent WB if you leave them on 'Auto WB',when the pictures will come out too yellow. The Auto-WB setting generally does an accurate job in any sort of daylight but it is expecting a bit much of any camera (at the moment) to recognise, and compensate exactly for, all possible changes in lighting over a wide range. If you are shooting under incandescent lights you just need to remember to set the WB appropriately, then the results are fine. If there is still a colour cast, a single click in photoshop elements will fix it..

I leave my K100D on Auto WB for everything except artificial lights, when it does need to be set manually and then produces fine results. The same is true of any DSLR I would say..

Best wishesMike..

First a couple of thoughts on IS:.

Rule of thumb - you can hand hold the reciprocal of the lens focal length in 35mm terms. Thus 18=27 so 1/30th at the wide end and 55=80 so 1/80th at the tele end..

I any scene involving people you will need 1/100th to stop slight movement of still subjects. So that is a minimum for candid portraits etc and a good yardstick as a minimum for posed ones..

Given the good high ISO of DSLRs such speeds are not a problem in all but the most challenging of light (I shoot theatre and concerts at ISO 1600 f/2.8 1/100th to give you an idea)..

For me a fast lens is more important than VR. My Nikon 80-200 f2.8 gives me two stops over most consumer zooms at the long end. VR would give me 2-3 stops. Granted it is bulky and heavy but there are lots of used examples readily available many for no more than the cost of a new VR telezoom and the lens has stellar quality. And when I might need VR I can use a monopod..

The new Canon 18-55 IS is a marketing gimmick in my view. It refreshes a lens that is universally regarded as poor quality:http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/canon_1855_3556/index.htm.

As best I can see it is no more than a reworking of the existing lens with a "simplified" VR. How effective it will be must be in doubt..

Next the viewfinder..

Although use of the LCD is becoming more common on DSLRs (I first had it on my Olympus E20. So it is not new) the VF is your window on the world. Although you can take good pictures with most DSLRs your ability to see the moment to press the shutter is restricted on some. You simply must check out your shortlist viewing through them (and handling them) at a store or with the help of friends..

Linking to the first topic. In camera IS really does not work at focal lengths at and over 200mm becaue the VF is not stabilised. So you can shoot blind and sometimes get the best shot you may miss the best possible shot because you cannot see it clearly..

Next WB..

You have the right handle on it Auto never works properly in incandescent light. The reviews of the K10D not only makes the the point about soft image etc but say that the WB is engineered for creative serious amateurs. But WB is never a problem if you shoot RAW. It is the work of a moment to adjust it and then with most software (certainly Nikon Capture NX) you can quickly batch process your entire shoot to the same settings..

Next Scene Modes.

I am not sure why you would want them. I have never used them. I am sure your wife can cope with the camera set on Auto. That said most affordable DSLRs seem to have them so it is not really an issue..

Next what to look for in reviews.

Generally high ISO noise is not a big issue on most (My need for good ISO 1600 is extreme (and I would love good ISO 6400 at an affordable price!)). More relevant is good dynamic range (It was the DR at 1600 that sold the Nikon D80 to me). DR is still not as good as film negative. And it can make all the difference to whether you have blown highlights a good example of which would be a bleached out sky. Anything less than 8.00 EV at ISO 100-800 is not acceptable. And highlight range is more important than shadow range..

Thus on paper the Canon 400D and the Nikon D40X now come top of the pile in affordable DSLRs but for me the Canon is too much of a toy and has an awful VF. It also occasionally underexposes and the AF is not as good in very low light..

If buying now I would have to weigh the additional features of the D80 with the excellent DR and low noise of the D40x. (the AF-S on the D40x is becoming less of a problem by the day with over 40 lenses now available - still a few gaps though especially primes).

Final thoughts.

1. Most of us have tribal loyalties to our brand!.

2. I think you already have a handle on this but you are buying a system not just a camera. What do present trends in terms of recent cameras etc tell you about where each mfr is going in the future?.

Hope that helps!.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

GaryDeM wrote:.

Strongly suggest you do some more background reading. in readingreviews remind yourself from what point of view are speaking from?they are not neutral, even from this web site..

There are a number of magazines and sites that is true of but "even this web site". Care to demonstrate that?.

True it soft pedals a little on the one/two word summary "Highly Recommended", "Recommended" & "Above Average" but it is largely consistent in doing so..

May I hazard a guess that you feel it is biased against your chosen brand?!!.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

You do not have to shoot in raw. just shoot jpeg as suggested and sharpen in pc later...

No my view of bias is not based on my chosen brand. when the initial k10 review came out in this website there was a scream of protest on the pentac dslr forum. all saying what I said here. that the pentax was being compared to another camera unnamed, and that the jpeg images were soft and unusable. the reviewer did not do his homework and find out why they were soft. but it was there to be read.



The pentax was not the only brand that was downed nikon ended up in the same boat. it is just that the reviewer liked very much a certain look and it was not nikon pentax sony or olympus..

I am not saying the reviewer is a bad person for any bias but it should be stated out in front and get such things over with..

Later and earlier when the unnamed brand was reviewed it was mentioned to have certain nice thing atributes in it's pics. which atributes? the same ones he didn't like the other four not having and said so..

I do not care if he does so. just tell me going in. this is why I read camera reviews from other major websites in order to balance out the point of view..

A similar situation would in having thom hogan do sony reviews. he would be speaking from a certain point of view. this is not bad just tell the reader...

Do not let the 6MP "limit" of the K100D be a problem. I have an even older model and have made 16X20 prints that were great. The AF is quite fast on the K100D, even faster than the D40. What I like is that Pentax has AS and does not dumb down their lower level cameras. Lenses are cheap for their quality and high ISO abilities are only beaten by Full Frame cameras...

Go with what Mike and John said, as they are close to factual..

The most important issue is ergonomics, regardless what you may think. It's important to hold and use a prospective camera system. Look through the viewfinder. Is the view big or small? Put on a long zoom (heavy) and try holding the combo with your right hand. Use the buttons. Use the menu system..

Forget all that @#$% about AF, WB, MP, IS, VR, etc. All the candidate cameras will be good. Remember, that ALL cameras are P&S cameras. Some just take a little more knowledge to get them adjusted so they make GOOD P&S shots...but once you do this (once, in advance), the P&S cameras with flopping mirrors take great pix..

BTW, as you can see from my byline, I don't have a camera with a mirror, so I'm not too biased based on ownership. I do like Nikon and Pentax dSLRs more than the others. The cheap Canon is awkward to use, has poor IQ (with the cheap lenses bundled with it), and has the worst VF in existance. If you simply MUST have a Canon, move up to a 30D...and buy some good glass!.

If you are interested in IQ, read this:.

Http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/?page_id=11.

Charlie DavisNikon 5700 & Sony R1HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

So I was right Phil Askey is biased against your brand?! Strange that - I thought his review of the K100D was very positive..

And I cannot say that I have noticed any bias against Nikon (my brand)..

So you think he is biased in favour of Canon? Ah well!.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Every Pentax DSLR has been accused of having soft JPEG's. I read Phil's review and went out and bought a Pentax because I found it was a default settings issue. I actually get sharp, RAW resolution JPEG's...

John farrar wrote:.

Image Stabilisation alone is not a good reason to buy a particularbrand of camera; we managed quite well in the past without it and canstill do so today..

We also managed quite well in the past without autofocus. And without auto exposure. And without auto white balance. Thank goodness we're in the present where all those extra features are available, including image stabilization..

I see it as something that permits dim cheapolenses to be used where they really ought not to be.

Or, with in-body stabilization, one can combine image stabilization with expensive primes and thereby extend their usefulness..

Or as a help tosomeone with shaky hands..

Or when tripods aren't allowed or available, or on a moving ship's deck, or the top of a tour bus, or..

It will do nothing special to stop fastsubject motion either..

That's not it's purpose. (Using the same logic, autofocus won't help with white balance.) The purpose of stabilization is not to stabilize the subject, but to stabilize the camera..

You'll get much, much better image quality with something like aTamron 28-75 or one of the manufacturers' f2.8 lenses..

One is always advised to shoot with the best lens available. That doesn't negate the value of stabilization..

Visit PBase.com or Flikr.com and take a look at shots taken on variouslenses - shots of the kind that you'll be taking. Look at photodo.comas well for comparative lens lists.Don't dismiss Pentax DSLRs, they are amongst the best not leastbecause of the huge number of legacy lenses available (likewise Sonywith the Minolta mount which they acquired.)In fact none of the entry level DSLRs are 'bad', just some are nicerto use than others due to better ergonomics and viewfinders etc.If you're nervous about getting into the wrong system then buy Canonor Nikon which are easier to trade out of because a majority of userslike them.If I had to get another DSLR tomorrow I think it would be a Nikoneven without IS.Lastly, is there any sound reason why you couldn't be happy with aPanasonic Fz50?.

Excellent advice...

Well said..

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window..

I appreciate all the comments. For one, I am going to put several in hand as suggested. Since many of you are familiar with it, on the K10d if I step up the saturation and sharpness to get a bit more punch and edge, will the settings stay or will they have to be set everytime the camera is turned on? I observed in the dpreview that it was suggested that 3rd party RAW processing would be preferred, such as Adobe over the PE supplied. Are there any 3rd party RAW processes that aren't expensive (like Adobe CS3) AND would allow for batch processing? (That becomes an additional factor if it is "required" if I don't care for what I might get from the in-camera processor)..

Lastly I'm not committed to any brand. The Pentax is appealing because it appears to rival the quality and features of the higher line C&N cameras at their "budget" line prices. And while C&N may have a more extensive line of newer AF dSLR lenses, I think what Pentax offers would suffice for me just fine...

In camera IS really does not work atfocal lengths at and over 200mm because the VF is not stabilised. Soyou can shoot blind and sometimes get the best shot you may miss thebest possible shot because you cannot see it clearly..

The in-body stabilization systems have a meter that's visible inside the viewfinder The meter indicates the level of stabilization attained..

I regularly get stabilized shots at 500mm using the SONY A100 combined with the Sigma 50-500mm..

That particular lens is not available in a stabilized version for any camera manufacturer, but it becomes stabilized with in-body systems...

Any setting in the menu would stay after power is shut off. this is true of any dslr I can think of..

As for pp try photoshop elements 5; it does most of the cs3 but at fraction of the cost. it also has the new acr4.1 which has some very new abilities..

Why do you not shoot jpeg and do your sharpening in the pc? that has been suggested in earlier posts. the only thing you have to do is adjust the contrast and saturation to your liking. as jpegs the k10d is outresolving the c+n competition. it just needs sharpening done in the pc. if you nget pe5 all you have to do is go to the quickfix section and hit autosharpen and the program does the rest. then save as a tiff or jpeg. I would strongly suggest saving as a tiff...

It is interesting that YOU mentioned the pentax k100d. I NEVER said anything about it; I was always speaking of the k10d. you did read what I wrote, didn't you?.

I was always speaking of the k10d and said so. obviously you did not pick this up. I also said nothing bad about any other brand, so what bias are talking about that I supposedly have? the one I didnot state I guess...

Well I did get a K10D in hand and it's a beast! I have to take the wife back to get her opinion on her ability to handle it. I had no problem handling it and thought it to be quite solid. But she is petite with small hands and I wonder how much she is going to like handling 1.5 lbs of camera vs say the 1.0 lbs of the XTi. That said, the XTi seemed tactily flimsy and cheap in comparison (though I know it doesn't affect image quality). Tactily, the K10D feels more like the D80 or 30D (in both size/heft and build quality, thought it weighs more than both). It would be nice if we could get both (K10D and XTi) for a day and take them to for example the zoo and feel what it's like to carry each around as a comparison..

I know now I would not want the Canon 17-85 IS lens as a walkaround. It's too bulky. But one perceived advantage C&N have over Pentax and that is both OEM and aftermarket (Tamron, Sigma etc) lens availability/compatability. I know there may be an inifnite number of legacy lenses that fit, but how many are AF to today's standards (and are decent in the longer zooms)? It's too bad Canon/Nikon didn't put the IS in the camera (but then they lose out on high $ lens sales!). As has been put before in my readings, there is no perfect camera. The quest continues. I again thank all who have commented and welcome any additional perspectives...

How about an Olympus E510? It is particularly compact as DSLRs go; it has dust removal and in-camera image stabilisation. There are plenty of lenses available - probably not as many as for C&N but plenty all the same..

It has a marginal disadvantage over the other you've considered in that the smaller sensor means that it will not perform quite so well at the highest ISO settings, although whether that is a real (rather a theoretical) difference I couldn't say. You could try one out in a shop and takethe pictures home on a memory stick to have a look at..

Best wishesMike..

Mike703 wrote:.

How about an Olympus E510? It is particularly compact as DSLRs go;it has dust removal and in-camera image stabilisation. There areplenty of lenses available - probably not as many as for C&N butplenty all the same..

It has a marginal disadvantage over the other you've considered inthat the smaller sensor means that it will not perform quite so wellat the highest ISO settings, although whether that is a real (rathera theoretical) difference I couldn't say. You could try one out in ashop and takethe pictures home on a memory stick to have a look at..

I agree that if your wife is petite, the Oly's are a good choice. Unfortunately, a MemoryStick will not fit into a E-510...try a CF or xD. .

Charlie DavisNikon 5700 & Sony R1HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

Well we put several models in hand. K10D, E-410, E-510, XTi and 30D, D40x. Principally, these were what was available and representative of the sizes. Could have handled a D80, but there wasn't much point. From the wife's perspective, the K10D was too bulky/heavy as was the 30D once we tried a couple of the smaller ones. Least favorite was the XTi.

I would say we are down to the Nikon and Olympus. Either is fine for her..

I like the feature set on the Olympus with built in Shake Resistance and Sensor cleaner. But....looking at imaging-resource.com comparisons of images, nearly every shot appears noticeably darker and duller and when viewed large certainly not as sharp..

I have noted in other reviews that the camera tends to slightly underexpose. Others have commented that the default NR setting should be low rather than standard and default processing should be "vivid" (like the E-410) the combination of which should sharpen and punch-up the picture. I suppose you could set the exposure up 1/2 or 1.0 "by default" to compensate and take the occasional blow-out. I wonder having done that if they would be more similar. All of these should be "saved" changes at power up and down so could be willing to deal with having to do that. If anyone has opinions, I'd appreciate it. I don't relish making the changes and they would probably have to be done everytime the battery came out to be recharged but it may be the price to pay for the feature set...

RSpent wrote:.

Well we put several models in hand. K10D, E-410, E-510, XTi and 30D,D40x. Principally, these were what was available and representativeof the sizes. Could have handled a D80, but there wasn't much point.From the wife's perspective, the K10D was too bulky/heavy as was the30D once we tried a couple of the smaller ones. Least favorite wasthe XTi..

It's amazing how everyone hates the feel of the XTi (and all it's predecessors, too). Canon refuses to budge and continues to make them that shape. And idiots continue to buy them! As PT said many years ago, "Nobody ever lost money betting on the stupidity of people"...or something like that..

Amazing how similar in design are the XTi and D40x yet theD40x felt good in hand. I would say we are down to the Nikon andOlympus. Either is fine for her..

Yes, both are good choices. Don't forget the less expensive D40!.

I like the feature set on the Olympus with built in Shake Resistanceand Sensor cleaner. But....looking at imaging-resource.comcomparisons of images, nearly every shot appears noticeably darkerand duller and when viewed large certainly not as sharp..

I have noted in other reviews that the camera tends to slightlyunderexpose. Others have commented that the default NR settingshould be low rather than standard and default processing should be"vivid" (like the E-410) the combination of which should sharpen andpunch-up the picture. I suppose you could set the exposure up 1/2 or1.0 "by default" to compensate and take the occasional blow-out. Iwonder having done that if they would be more similar. All of theseshould be "saved" changes at power up and down so could be willing todeal with having to do that. If anyone has opinions, I'd appreciateit.



NO! You don't lose anything with the battery out for a while. After a LONG time (hours to days) yes, you do lose the stored parameters, the date and time, etc. If you only have ONE battery, charge it in the camera? If you have TWO, swap them..

Charlie DavisNikon 5700 & Sony R1HomePage: http://www.1derful.infoBridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/..

As has already been said the camera will remember your changed settings so this is not a problem..

Biggest downside to the Olympus is the narrow dynamic range particularly in the highlight side. I base that comment on the review of the E410 on this site and the review of both the E410 and E510 onhttp://www.imaging-resource.com..

Olympus do make good lenses. The f/2.0-2.4 35-140mm equivalent on my E20 was a honey. But then you are stuck with a relatively poor viewfinder mainly because of the 2x crop of the 4/3rds system..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Did you look at the Sony A100? It's size is nice, slightly larger than Olympus but IMO just as good, plus I feel the larger sensor size gives it advantages with depth of field and noise. IMO a better camera than Pentax 100 and size and price put it over Pentax 10. Can't criticize Nikon 40X except that you have more setting options with the Sony and better ergonomics. On the other hand, Nikon has a very good support system with a lot of high quality lens options in placeeven though it won't take the older lenses..

All these are excellent cameras and will take better pictures than most of us have the skill to realize. Don't let us indiviual "fan boys" over influence yousee which you like the feel of and go for it. It seems you have done a good job of that so far by taking your wife along and eliminating some of the "too large" cameras...

Getting a dslr isn't gong to guarantee you better pictures unless you really take the time to get to know the manual modes and camera. Too many people think that moving up to a dslr will make their pictures better, after all, more money, more "bells" = better and can't figure out why they aren't, after never having used anything on the camera but the auto and scene modes. The camera is only as good as the person behind it and the amount of time they are willling to put into becoming a better photographer..

If you are truly an educated novice, then you won't be sucked in by the "more is better". You will get frustrated with a camera that is more than you are ready for and you won't use the features anyway..

If you are used to a pont and shoot the best thing you can look for is the live view feature, since you will realy miss having an lcd, if that is what you are used to using. Face it, it is not always convenient to have to use a viewfinder, especially in taking candid shots or in a crowd shooting over the heads of others..

As far as the MP, if you've been around the forums long enough you know that it is, for the most part, unless you are in a really expensive, large sensor camera, simply a marketing ploy aimed at the average consumer to whom more must equal better..

As a previous poster said, unless you are going to print huge 6mp is plenty. I've printed 8x10 from a 1.3mp and they look as good as my 8mp..

So go to your local camera shop and get your hands on the cameras you are looking at and see which work for you and your shooting style. You can get all the opinions you want and read all the reviews, but if it doesn't feel good in your hands and the menus and buttons don't work for you, you will grab your P&S rather than the dslr.LG..