Watch this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qFiEna9p4U.
You'll find out that Image Stabilization get you blury pictures. What you need is high sensitivity sensor, instead, to freeze the actions (and the camera shake at the same time). In the point & shoot world, none does better than the Fuji F31fd...
Hi,.
You say "all the blurry pictures" and as you don't know much about them I wonder what the cause was. Looking at the specification of the camera I wonder if something has been altered without you noticing it because it ought to be OK. Can you shed any light on the causes?.
Regards, David..
I really don't know what is causing the blurry pictures. I know very little about the settings on cameras. If the pictures were taken outside, during the day they turned out fine. They also turned out fine if we used the flash. There were many situations though where we didn't want the flash to hide the background in low light conditions and that is where we got the blurry pictures. Our friends that were with us didn't seem to have the same problem and they just have regular P&S cameras as well..
Now that I think about it though, I kind of know why the pictures are blurry. When I take a picture with the HP in low-light, it takes as long as a few seconds to actually take the pictures. The light flashes and the camera makes slight noises during that time after which the picture will finally pop up on the sceen. Sometimes it won't ever pop up and I have to restart the camera to take another picture. I can't keep the camera still enough during that time. Is this problem fixable in the settings?..
Hi,.
It sounds as though you have a low ISO setting and a long zoom setting in use when you fire away (and using the LCD screen instead of the optical viewfinder may add to the complications). Trouble is a wide angle setting may get you a faster aperture but will introduce some distortion of faces (usually) and high ISO will introduce noise problems..
There are solutions involving other flash guns - there is one that can be fitted to the camera and will work as a bounce flash (ie give soft even and shadowless lighting, with the camera's flash acting as a highlight) but that is a bit too complicated..
So I hope you won't be insulted if I say that your friends with their P&S's might be the ones to advise you on the camera as they, obviously, can suggest their's and be in a position to help you with using them. I hope this doesn't sound patronising but I often think this is the solution to a lot of today's complex gadgets: try using a different mobile 'phone from your wife and answering her questions about her one to see what I mean....
Regards, David..
This is a common flaw in P&S cameras..
You can try to manually set higher sensetivity (ISO 200 or 400). That would cut time camera needs to shoot something in at least half. (ISO 200 is two times "faster" than ISO 100, ISO 400 is 4 times, etc.).
But camera doesn't do that on auto for a reason, - depending on camera internal works that would either blur image or add a lot of blue/red specks (so-called noise), or both..
You can also try to underexpose (EV bias), but that would produce dark pictures with dull colors..
As for new camera, - Fujifilm F series (F31fd especially) are highly commended here for that type of photos, but I have no expirience with them..
According to reviews they allow you to crank up sensetivity up to 400-800 without much problem..
Next best would probably be upper models in Canon A series. (something I'd probably end up buying in a few months.) They en't as good at high sensetivity, but many models have picture stabilization..
And well, I happened to use HP built-in camera once. It was abysmal, even by phone cameras standard. If their regular ones are even a bit like it, anything would be better. But then, I'm a bit anti-HP for a variety of reasons, so.....
Okay, I've done some more research. Everything I have read says that the Fuji F31fd is the best in it's class when it comes to low light pictures. What about the Fuji F40fd? This camera seems to take care of the reservations I had about the 31. One being that it now takes SD cards, and two it claims to have image stabilization even though I don't thinik it is optical. Does the 40 have the same high quaility sensor and take the same quaility low-light pictures as the 31?..
Crwdz7 wrote:.
Okay, I've done some more research. Everything I have read saysthat the Fuji F31fd is the best in it's class when it comes to lowlight pictures. What about the Fuji F40fd? This camera seems totake care of the reservations I had about the 31. One being that itnow takes SD cards, and two it claims to have image stabilizationeven though I don't thinik it is optical. Does the 40 have the samehigh quaility sensor and take the same quaility low-light pictures asthe 31?.
"Stabilization" in this case is marketese for limited ISO 2000 capability. Disregard..
SD vs xD yes, that is something useful... SD cards are better and cheaper. Then, again, you don't print your card..
Sensors, - google for "Fuji F40FD review" most seriuous review sites do controlled samples of output at different ISOs. My opinion, - not as good as F31fd, but still very good..
F40fd is auto only, I belive, something that may or may not be important to you (then, again, if your friends did better shots with other than HP cameras, it's probably not critical. I somehow doubt they are all pro photographers with picked equipment. ).
/me again says a word or two about scarce availability of Fujis where I live...
The F40 actually competes with the F20 than the F31. The F20 is basically the automatic-only camera, without many of the manual controls..
What I don't like about the F40 is that it tries to cramp more pixels (8MP) into the same sensor. This means worse performance in low light. When there is plenty of light, though, more sensor will allow larger prints. I have seen the output from the Fuji S9000, which also cramps more pixels (9MP) into the same sensor. The result isn't any where as good as the 6MP from the F31..
No wonder the max ISO is 2000 on the F40 rather than 3200 like the F31..
The only thing I like about the F40 is that it has a slot for SD memory. But then 1GB of xD is now only $25, which isn't that bad anymore...
The big problem is not the camera but you. Any compact camera will have problems in low light. In real low light you need real ISO1600 and 1/60 s or real ISO 200 and 1/8 s (if you have a good image stabilization like Canon or Panasonic)..
Fuji F31 has no image stabilization and has a good real ISO400 (named ISO800 because big numbers are more appealing). So you can get with 1/40 s and ISO400 at f/2.8. Pretty low light. This is a fairly well lit room at night..
With Sony IS you surely get just 1 stop (compared to 2 or 3 stops from Canon and Panasonic) so a Sony W80 would be less suitable for low light.Casio IS is useless (see the review on this site)..
True low light performance give you the dSLRs with very fast lens (f/1.4) and short focal length. But that's out of the question..
The main rule you have to learn is that you can have sharp pictures hand held at shutter speeds higher than 1/EFL s (EFL is the 35 mm equivalent focal length). Image stabilization will alter the rule to 2/EFL for Sony and 4/EFL or even 8/EFL for Canon and Panasonic.Let's assume you got a 38-114 mm lens on your camera..
At full wide (no zoom at all) you can have a sharp picture at 1/40 s if you know how to hold properly the camera. At full zoom you need 1/125 s. Usually the aperture at full zoom is smaller than at wide angle so you have a higher shutter speed needed and you can use a smaller aperture so the light must be much more than at wide angle (usually at least three stops so 8 times more light)..
Before purchasing a new camera that will give you the same blurry pictures (or very processed images from very high ISO used) please try to understand the basics of exposure, the rules of photography (the above presented rule is named tripod rule) and how you can apply with your camera..
After you master the basics you'll know what to look at a new camera (fast lens, decent high ISO, image stabilization effectiveness, sensor size, etc.).VictorBucuresti, Romaniahttp://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/..
... that Fuji's ISO 800 is really ISO 400? Is it based on some evidence or just "nothing but DSLR has useable high ISOs?"..
I have Fujifilm S6000. ISO100 in bright days give me good exposures at f/5.6 and 1/400 s - 1/550 s. I should have if it was a real ISO100 1/1000 s at f/5.6. So it is real ISO40 - ISO55 (more likely ISO50 since those pictures seem better exposed at 1/500 s).ISO800 is ISO100 amplified 8 times so 8xISO50=ISO400..
You need a large sensor (i.e. a large photosite) for true high ISO performance. But Fuji has 1 stop advantage over most compact cameras (their real ISO400 is like others ISO200). What a pity they don't have OIS.VictorBucuresti, Romaniahttp://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/..
You are obviously very competent photographer, and I won't doubt your judgement, but... looking at test pictures here I just don't see what you said should be there..
Fujifilm FinePix S6000fd Sony DSC-H2ISO 400, 1/280 sec, F5.0 ISO 400, 1/320 sec, F5.0.
Fujifilm FinePix S6000fd Sony DSC-H2ISO 800, 1/600 sec, F5.0 ISO 800, 1/800 sec, F5.0.
Fujifilm FinePix F31fd Canon SD 800 IS (IXUS 850 IS)ISO 400, 1/247 sec, F4.9 ISO 400, 1/320 sec, F4.5.
Fujifilm FinePix F31fd Canon SD 800 IS (IXUS 850 IS)ISO 800, 1/498 sec, F4.9 ISO 800, 1/640 sec, F4.5.
Fujifilm FinePix F31fd Canon SD 800 IS (IXUS 850 IS)ISO 1600, 1/996 sec, F4.9 ISO 1600, 1/250 sec, F11.
Also, pictures of that ISO test scene from Fujis are brighter than those of Sony or Canon. So, I won't say it is really as bad as you said..
Even if we disregard brigtness difference, Fuji's ISO 400 is like standard ISO 300, not 200, and 800 is 600. Still much better than competition. Still a very sizeable advantage...
The problem is that most manufacturers pump up the numbers. From all my cameras only Canon A610 has the real numbers. Canon S3 has a ISO80 that is ISO50, Fujifilm S6000 has ISO100 that is still ISO50. Sony P100 has ISO100 that is ISO50..
If you want to delude that the Camera has a ISO100 that makes pictures with f/5.6 and 1/500 s there are no problems. As soon as you have a little lower light you will have blurry pictures as soon as the light will fall below 1/EFL (or 4/EFL if you have a good OIS)..
The rule I use is well verified and it's the "Sunny f/16 rule". In a sunny day (not with snow or on the beach) to get the good exposure you need for a ISO100 film f/16 and 1/125 s. As you don't have f/16 the rule is f/8, 1/500 s or f/5.6, 1/1000 s.VictorBucuresti, Romaniahttp://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/..
This is perhaps because the standard to determine the equivalent ISO speed was changed. If you had ISO400 film just for emergencies now you can have ISO1600 that gives you the same parameters. Just modify the reference..
If you compare ISO400 from film with ISO400 from a camera that gives you the same parameters as the film at ISO1600 then the digital camera the best in town..
Of course the example is rather extreme (2 stops) but you would say how good your camera is at ISO800 while this is ISO200..
It seems as the sensor got crowded the base sensibility decreased. If you put lower and lower sensibility you have a marketing problem. So you say that ISO50 is now ISO100 or ISO80.VictorBucuresti, Romaniahttp://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/..
Baloo_buc wrote:.
Of course the example is rather extreme (2 stops) but you would sayhow good your camera is at ISO800 while this is ISO200..
Well, I don't own F31 if it is what you meant....
Anyway,as I see it... That ISO100 1/1000 f/5.6 rule is definitely useful, but I suspect it may not be scalable to high ISOs.1) There's no "standard sunny days" out there. Just went out and tried it.(spot meter)Blue sky away from sun, - ISO100 1/1000 f/5.8, as you said (almost)Some trees and lawns ISO100 1/300 f/5.8Shadows ISO100 1/42(!) F/2.8.
Ok, my camera is an entry-level compact and it's meter may be in gross error, or sensor so bad, that it's ISO 400 is ISO 50, or our trees and lawns may be not as nice as cloudless sky....
So, meter sayig not 1/1000 in uncontrolled conditions proves not as much as one might think. And estimates of correct exposure "by eye" prove even less, for obvious reson, - in all but most gross situations everybody's idea of "correct exposure" will vary..
And when talking about ISO 800-1600 we are amplifying these errors by order of magnitude, at least..
2) But, meters do say different things in controlled conditions too (see those ISO tests), so this may or may not be indicatiion of cam manufacturers cheating... Because for some reason all the cams have different EV biases in EXIF, set manually I suppose. I'm not enough familiar with this type of tests to say why it is so. And they definitely have different metering algorithms..
3) So the only conclusive proof would be full-manual test in very controlled conditions. for most P&S meaning probably disassembly of a camera..
But sdo we even really need that? Just seeing noise levels and speed/aperture would be enough for compareison sake, even if those ISOs are indeed all bogus. And you excellently explained speed/stability issue...
The dynamic range. Even the worst ISO 100 film has DR of ~12 bits while we are stuck with 8 bits shooting JPEGs. That's 32x difference!.
When I uploaded those shots, well... Not one of them was quite "correct". Correctly exposed sky meant underexposed ground, and if ground was right, the sky was blown white. And something inbetween has all the "sunnines" quality gone....
What it means for our purposes is that applying that f/5.6 1/1000 rule to digicam as if it was film would certainly produce wrong result, ISO or no ISO..
But, with artifical light, we don't have DR problem, we have just that, - sensetivity problem, so it is different..
And don't buy cams on sale Samsung A40's chromatism is atrocious. ..
Ablack wrote:.
- - - Snip! Snip! - - -.
But sdo we even really need that? Just seeing noise levels andspeed/aperture would be enough for compareison sake, even if thoseISOs are indeed all bogus. And you excellently explainedspeed/stability issue..
Do you realise that if people start printing their pictures and then simply looking at them the entire photographic industry will squawk and fall dead off it's perch? Simply because we'll see how well off we were with 5 mp and 2/3" CCDs... And stop buying new and gimmicky equipment. Pull yourself together man..
Regards, David..
It may that film have 12 stops (I doubt that all films have 12 stops). As I find out the small sensor cameras have a DR of a little over 9 stops at ISO50.For a comparison look at these 2 photos:ISO100; f/5; 1/550 s (or f/4; 1/860 s)http://picasaweb.google.com/vpetcu/ISOTest/photo#5086062539190837218.
ISO50; f/4; 1/1000 s (Canon buried the ISO speed but you can download the full resolution and check with IrfanView at least 3.99)http://picasaweb.google.com/vpetcu/ISOTest/photo#5086062547780771826Do you think the Canon photo is underexposed with 1 stop?VictorBucuresti, Romaniahttp://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/..
And from Fuji S6000:http://picasaweb.google.com/vpetcu/ISOTest/photo#5088230822633657858A different time of day.VictorBucuresti, Romaniahttp://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/..
Since you want to avoid blurry images, I think Fuji's F series would be the best choice. I'd suggest you to try and compare their models to other manufacturers' P&S cameras...
Ablack wrote:.
Baloo_buc wrote:.
Of course the example is rather extreme (2 stops) but you would sayhow good your camera is at ISO800 while this is ISO200..
Well, I don't own F31 if it is what you meant....
I didn't referred any camera. It was a fictitious example..
Anyway,as I see it... That ISO100 1/1000 f/5.6 rule is definitelyuseful, but I suspect it may not be scalable to high ISOs..
The three parameters (ISO speed, aperture and shutter speed) are interrelated. If you change one the others change. So if you have ISO100; f/5.6; 1/250 s you get ISO200; f/5.6; 1/500 s..
1) There's no "standard sunny days" out there. Just went out andtried it.(spot meter).
The spot metering is not for the average brightness of the scene. It's just the brightness of the spot you are metering..
The usual DR of compact cameras is less than 8 stops with JPG and about 9 stops in RAW. So you can have well exposed areas that with spot meter readings are 1/60 s, f/5.6 and 1/16000 s, f/5.6. With the contrast slope you may have just about 6 stops so 1/125 s - 1/8000 s at f/5.6. Usually it's enough if the sun isn't in equation (it's behind you). If you would have 12 stops everything between 1/15 s and 1/64000 s would be OK..
I never used film so I cannot tell if it's true or not. But you know that the best photo printers have less than 7 stops so even if you get that much DR in film you just can play what to left in the paper so you never saw that large DR.VictorBucuresti, Romaniahttp://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/..
Download the full resolution pictures (it's a link Download Photo on the right of the photo). Also if you click more information you will see ISO speed, aperture and shutter speed with the exception of Canon A610 that has ISO speed in a different place so it's not recognized by Picasa that knows standard EXIF (IrfanView 3.99 supports the location of Canon ISO setting so it will show in the Maker notes).VictorBucuresti, Romaniahttp://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/..
Well, difficult to argue with that. I still doubt this is the full story, but it's definitrely clear indication that ISO claims of camera manufacturers should be examined carefully, not just taken at face value..
As for DR, well, maybe I was overoptimistic about one of films, (although 12 bit sensor is minimum for scanners.) But there's no way we could display that extra bit camera sensors have. So it's 8, for now at least (until there would be HDR monitors everywhere, with real HDR. )(are we talking about the same unit?)..
Yes we are talking about the same unit. 1 bit is a power of 2 the same the stop. Scanners have 16 bits for processing purposes. I always make levels adjustments in 16 bit even if the image I work with is 8 bits.VictorBucuresti, Romaniahttp://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/..
Well, you gave everything needed for our discussion in the post.IrfanView 4.0, Opera... (Google says it's not supported.)..
Baloo_buc wrote:.
The three parameters (ISO speed, aperture and shutter speed) areinterrelated. If you change one the others change. So if you haveISO100; f/5.6; 1/250 s you get ISO200; f/5.6; 1/500 s..
I wasn't clear enough, probably. What I meant by "scalability" is the simple fact that if we have, say metre stick which is 1m +/-10cm long, we measure 1 metre with that accuracy. But if we measure 8 metres we get +/- 80 cm error, and 16 m mean +/- 1.6 m error..
So, if there were any not accounted for factors in our 100 ISO comparisons, that give us tiny +/- 10 ISO error, it would translate in about 100 ISO error when we talk about high ISOs..
The spot metering is not for the average brightness of the scene.It's just the brightness of the spot you are metering..
Yes, I did shots with average meter later, difference was not as drastic, but it still was there...
I hope this too..
When I got my second camera (Canon A610) because of constant problems with dust of Sony P100, I was amazed that Canon camera at ISO 50 had the same parameters as Sony at ISO100..
And odd enough Canon was according the books I read while Sony was off. When I got Canon S3 I verified it and I found out that at ISO80 it had the same parameters as A610 at ISO50 and P100 at ISO100..
All these are base ISO speeds and give the same parameters (P100 had only f/5.6 and f/2.8 while Canon prefers f/4).VictorBucuresti, Romaniahttp://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/..
Hi.
Cristiano Conrad.
Canon EOS 30DCanon BG-E2Sigma 24-70 2.8 EXCanon 50 1.8 Mk II.
Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.
Http://www.cristianoconrad.smugmug.com..
Now I understand you. In low light (my room artificially lit at night) I got ISO400, f/2.8, 1/40 s with Canon A610 and ISO800, f/2.8, 1/38 s so it is quite close and corroborated with sunny photos.ISO800 of Fuji is better than ISO400 of Canon.VictorBucuresti, Romaniahttp://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/..
Baloo_buc wrote:.
Now I understand you. In low light (my room artificially lit atnight) I got ISO400, f/2.8, 1/40 s with Canon A610 and ISO800, f/2.8,1/38 s so it is quite close and corroborated with sunny photos.ISO800 of Fuji is better than ISO400 of Canon..
So, it is ISO400, probably, but nicier than most. ..
We tested a Dixons Special Fuji F47fd (9mp) against my current Panasonic TZ3 (7.1mp) in the fairly bright lights of a Dixons store..
What was noticable was that the Fuji automatically selected a higher ISO (200 vs 100) and a higher shutter speed..
However, the sharpness of the TZ3 was better (due to the image stabilisation?) and the overall noisiness was very similar on both..
Colour was a bit more natural on the Fuji - but that can be edited on a PC where-as sharpness and noise is more of an issue.
Shame Fuji seem to have dropped the ball on the low light performance in the quest for more megapixels ..... as I was looking at one of these for underwater use..
Maybe I will need to back down to the F31 or F30 .....