I'm not entirely sure but I think the answer lies in composition. You'd have to be so bold as to really go for your shot. #1 there's just enough person in the corner to distract. #2 nice idea but it only makes you wonder, nothing more..

Just my $0.02 of course.Don't wait for the Nikon D-whatever, have fun now!http://www.flickr.com/photos/j_wijnands/..

Three things..

First - be careful. I sometimes do this and one day I seem to have taken a street shot with some people who were very unhappy to be photographed. I suspect they were engaged in illegal activities, although I can't prove that. They expressed there displeasure verbally, but perhaps physical expression was not far off. Be careful..

While they are in public, bare in mind some of those people are actually hiding out, in effect, from lives they didn't like. In many ways you are violating their privacy, invading their homes, as it were. It may not be that way in a legal sense, but ethically ? .

Finally some photo suggestions. I think you are not giving context to the images. Loneliness and separation need a context. As regards composition perhaps more use of the two-thirds rule ? Black and white can be useful for this kind of subject..

StephenG.

Fuji S9600Fuji S5200Fuji F30Fuji E900Canon A710ISPCLinuxOS..

It wouldn't hurt to offer a handout. I'd try to get clear facial expressions. Most street people are weather beaten, and the image says a lot, especially when you can get a smile from someone obviously in discomfort. Street people are a diverse bunch you'll get a big variety of reactions to being photographed. I guess there's an important question to ask yourself: do you want to be a remote observer, or an indepth investigator?..

Agree here, a handout may not be inappropriate... As you wish to use them as a subject. No, I don't usually agree w/ giving a 'free' handout to a panhandler. Income ain't always so easy for me to come by, you know..

But... It can certainly help warm them up to being photographed. Sometimes TOO much..

Here's an example. This sax player was at the local farmer's market. I stood around for a minute or two, he definitely made eye contact and saw me. No prollem. Plus I had two cameras around my neck (Nikon D80 & Nikon N80)..

I took a few shots, these weren't really working. I paused again... Next I dropped, maybe $2 into his case. He started posing... looking at my lens... I put my camera down...



I shot from a few angles *quickly*, peeps would walk in front of my camera all the time still... I don't think he looked directly at me again until I was walking off happily with some candids from a few angles..

With a couple expensive "looking" cameras and lenses I don't think he'd be happy if I dint leave him anything. And it is hardly *any* expense compared to my gear... This isn't to say I can pay $2 for EACH 10 images I snap. Not a chance. Just the circumstance felt better this way..

On a different topic, animals at the zoo are somewhat isolated and lonely in 'feeling' sometimes. Please feel free to tell me if you find these to communicate this theme to you?.

Cheers.Davidmy flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/prodesma/.

One from first angle ("pensive"):.

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Walked around and got this ("JazzSF"):.

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Why I dislike zoos:.

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Pondering life's little notions:.

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Anti-war protest/demonstration/march:.

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This was my Canon S3 IS... You can turn OFF the shutter 'sound' and tilt the LCD... I can 'act' like I'm doing image reviews (chimping) while actually shooting. People could walk 1 feet in front of me and not know. It's 'guerrilla shooting' at it's easiest and best..

I have to say, I would NOT EVER shoot anything exploitative/unethical. So, I don't have an issue taking some candids..

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Wijnands,.

You'd have to be so bold as to really go for your shot..

Your point is well-taken. pic #2 was taken half a block away using 6x zoom. Thanks for your $0.02, I will try again!.

Sjgcit,.

They expressed there displeasure verbally, but perhaps physical expression was not far off. Be careful..

The guy in #2 was actually quite offended at first! He kept giving me the finger, but I kept shooting til I got the one I posted. To keep a long story short, I ended up buying breakfast for both of us. We talked a bit, and then he understood what I was doing and so we happily continue with the rest of the day..

While they are in public, bare in mind some of those people are actually hiding out, in effect, from lives they didn't like....

I did not consider this. Thanks for making me realize. I should really ask for permission first when shooting these subjects..

I think you are not giving context to the images..

I am troubled. What should I do? May I have an example, if possible?.

There were lots of people walking around the guy in #2. At first I wanted to take a picture of the guy sitting on the street, with people walking around him. I wanted my picture to express the message "no body cares at all". However, all the faces in the picture grabs attention away from my subject. Perhaps post processing would help?.

Brian Sprague,.

There's an important question to ask yourself: do you want to be a remote observer, or an indepth investigator?.

A very important question indeed my purpose in doing this is anything but a remote observer. Thanks for making me realize..

Prodesma!.

Thank you for sharing your experience with me. In my case, more interaction with my subject is needed..

It's 'guerrilla shooting' at it's easiest and best...I would NOT EVER shoot anything exploitative/unethical..

I do not doubt your motive, but the problem is, people assume we are exploitative : ( This is something that keeps me from taking candids in public.sigh!.

Thank you all for your suggestions. It seems when shooting people, interaction with the subject is as important as the composition of the picture, in some cases, even when taking candids...

I was going to be a smarty pants and say that's not a sax, it's a flugelhorn. But wikipedia (infallible source that it is) says:.

"The flugelhorn (also spelled fluegelhorn or flgelhorn) is a brass instrument resembling a trumpet but with a wider, conical bore. It is thought by some to be a member of the saxhorn family developed by Adolphe Sax (who also developed the saxophone); however, other historians assert that it has been derived from the keyed bugle by Michael Saurle (father), Munich 1832 (Royal Bavarian privilege for a "chromatic Flgelhorn" 1832), thus predating Adolphe Sax's innovative work.[1]".

So I guess if you could get away with calling it a "sax", as shorthand for "saxhorn", but not "saxophone"..

At any rate, those are great pictures, I especially like the second one!.

I think you're onto something, photographing street musicians or other performers. They are probably much less likely to object to being photographed, as they willingly put themselves in the public eye and expect to be noticed. A small donation would be appropriate, and I bet most would be willing to tolerate you and even pose (i.e., pretend to ignore you) for a little while...

Oh yeah, whoooops. I was writing my post without looking at my image. Clearly it is NOT a saxophone. I would've said 'trumpet' if I even looked at my photographic image (doh!) by flugelhorn it is... My apologies. Thanks for the info (correction), and for the kind words..

As for candids... I, too, find this a difficult subject matter. Mostly because I deeply wish to respect others' rights, even at the cost of not getting an image I'd like to capture..

The idea of asking for permission PRIOR to shooting oftentimes makes a candid 'no longer a candid.' Asking aftwerwards, well some would simply object... (no prollem). But sometimes I simply feel like it is also intrusive to go up to a person(s) and even bother them (by asking)..

Surely, this is a dilemma that has no simple solution. Each situation is different. A longer lens can help. But I understand a person's concern about having their image taken w/ many not-so-honourable intentions for using their photo..

In the book "Perfect Digital Photography" by Jay Kinghorn & Jay Dickman this topic is discussed at good length. Being photojournalists on assignment for the likes of National Geographic it becomes even more of a blurred line. John Isaac describes his stance in a short article (in the book), and it is very honorable (and a good idea IMHO)..

Cheers.Davidmy flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/prodesma/..

Dk1027 wrote:.

Your point is well-taken. pic #2 was taken half a block away using 6xzoom..

That's obvious! I like #1 a lot better. You are there. In #2 it gives the feeling that you are a stalker..

The guy in #2 was actually quite offended at first! He kept giving methe finger, but I kept shooting til I got the one I posted..

If you were within a few feet he wouldn't need to give you the finger. He could say "bugger off", or maybe not..

To keep along story short, I ended up buying breakfast for both of us..

A lot better than cash..

Seen in a fortune cookie:Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed..

It depends if your goal is to be the next Henri Cartier-Bresson or the next Diane Arbus. If it's the former, you need to get more confidence and get closer, but personally I find street photos of street folk fruit that's too low-hanging. Unposed, candid photos on the street should show the rich tapestry of events that take place in the open, and not simply the down on their luck. Again it's a personal thing, but I think street photography has had it's day... the increased vigilance of police, the over-emphasis people place on their privacy in public places, the proliferation of cellphones and the sheer number of people who crowd city streets today all make the lot of the street photographer an increasingly hard one..

But, if you plan on being more like Arbus, don't just photograph these people, engage with them. Earn their trust before you bring out the camera and spend time with them. Ideally, your presence as photographer soon fades and the unposed, unforced pictures that follow are all the more powerful because of that bond you have developed..

And don't pay them, except in hot drinks and sandwiches!You name it, I've broken it...

This has indeed been very interesting to read. Certainly a lot of food for thought..

I suppose we've hit the difference between being part of the story and telling it. Rather a subtle line..

I was asked to explain what I meant by context to the photo. I think I was trying to suggest that the events around the people is what gives their behavior significance. Simply photographing them, candidly or otherwise, in a close frame without context robs the viewer of the ability to gauge what's going on. Too much context and you swamp the subject, too little and you loose the viewer..

Having said that, as I think was implied ( or said ) by one of the posts, people's faces can be expressive in themselves. I had the impression you wished to convey an emotional context ( loneliness, separation ) that the faces did not express ( IMO ) and that, for example, placing them in a (street) context might have helped. But just because I feel that's the impact of a particular framing it does not mean anyone else will get the same sense..

Oh dang. Getting all artistic and philosophical in my old age. .

For the record I don't agree with handouts ( money ). I think for some street people that's the same as helping them be alcoholics and drug addicts ( and let me say that nowhere near all are ! ). I'd rather help a charity that knows what it's doing and who and how to help effectively. Also some of them are professional beggars, and that's robbing people who actually need it, which the charities can identify. For each one you see there are a dozen you don't, and the charities do..

I'd suggest working with a charity and asking them if they would let you document what's going on. You might also get to hear the stories that put things in a proper context for you and your viewers..

StephenG.

Fuji S9600Fuji S5200Fuji F30Fuji E900Canon A710ISPCLinuxOS..

You could also use a telephoto and shoot from a distance where the subjects don't even realize they are being photographed. That way they don't feel like you're intruding or change their demeanor while being photograph. You'd capture a natural expression..

However if I we're to want to photograph a needy person, I would give them a buck and ask if I could take a picture. As it is, I do give out hand outs all the time if the person really does look needy. If to me, they look like they can work, they get zero. I do feel bad for these needy people so I give them a buck to spend on what ever they want, food hopefully, drugs or booze what ever they like. It's not my descision to make, but if $1 makes their day a little better so be it. After all, if I have to worry or watch every $1 that leaves my hand, then I must not be in that good a shape.



If I'm not climbing, I'm not riding..

D20024-120mm f/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S VR Zoom-Nikkor28-70mm f/2.8D ED-IF AF-S Zoom-Nikkor50mm f/1.4D AF Nikkor70-200mm f/2.8G ED-IF AF-S VR Zoom-NikkorAT-X 124 AF PRO DX AF 12-24mm f/4SB-800.

Olympus C-8080..

Oscarc wrote:.

You could also use a telephoto and shoot from a distance where thesubjects don't even realize they are being photographed. That waythey don't feel like you're intruding or change their demeanor whilebeing photograph. You'd capture a natural expression..

The second image was telephoto, and as the OP mentioned, that's the subject that was enraged. Quite understandable, nobody likes somebody "spying" on them. Besides, telephoto candids just look bad..

Seen in a fortune cookie:Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed..

Sjgcit wrote:.

I'd suggest working with a charity and asking them if they would letyou document what's going on. You might also get to hear the storiesthat put things in a proper context for you and your viewers..

That's an excellent idea, I think. The charity might appreciate having some photos done, for their brochures or whatever, and the subjects probably wouldn't mind a camera being there, unless you get right up in their faces...

Thanks for all the suggestions. Today I went to take a couple pictures again on my way home from work..

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One of the posters above asked a very good question: do I want to be a remote observer or an indepth investigator? I chose to be the latter:.

We were actually talking for maybe 10 minutes before I took this picture. Near the end of our chat, I asked if I could take a picture of her cardboard sign and explicitly mentioned that I wont show her face. After taking the above picture, she told me there are actually tourists taking pictures of her, and she would be covering her face because it's such a shame.... shes almost crying as she told me that...

Nickleback wrote:.

Oscarc wrote:.

You could also use a telephoto and shoot from a distance where thesubjects don't even realize they are being photographed. That waythey don't feel like you're intruding or change their demeanor whilebeing photograph. You'd capture a natural expression..

The second image was telephoto, and as the OP mentioned, that's thesubject that was enraged. Quite understandable, nobody likessomebody "spying" on them. Besides, telephoto candids just look bad..

I think if the subject we're framed tighter, the pictures would look ok. They would not appear as zoomed..

If I'm not climbing, I'm not riding..

D20024-120mm f/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S VR Zoom-Nikkor28-70mm f/2.8D ED-IF AF-S Zoom-Nikkor50mm f/1.4D AF Nikkor70-200mm f/2.8G ED-IF AF-S VR Zoom-NikkorAT-X 124 AF PRO DX AF 12-24mm f/4SB-800.

Olympus C-8080..

What you point at......THAT is the real artistry..

Check out the late Henri Cartier Bresson on Google; & take a long look at his imagery...

Http://www.prime-junta.net/...to_Is_For_Wimps/a_Telephoto_Is_For_Cowards.html.

Ok maybe I'm exaggerating, but, no offence, "social porn" comes to mind specially in #2..

Both are a little bit blurry given the impression of being taken surreptitiously. What's your goal with those pics? If you want to denounce something, you might as well take your time and do it openly..

Also, I'm sure that, even in Canada, apart from bums, there are other subjects on the streets..

Regards..

My Galleries:http://webs.ono.com/igonzalezbordes/index.html..

The way I see it you have 2 ways to go about this...either openly or candid.

If it's candid, they shouldn't know you are, or were, there. If they see you it's no longer candid in the true sense of the word. So be as discreet as possible...I don't know what camera you are using, but if it's all singing and dancing, beeping and flashing like a miniture fairground it probably isn't doing you any favors with your subject. Don't stand in the middle of the pavement bolt upright, try to blend in as much as possible..

If someone sees you and takes offence, walk away, respect their privacy, and think how you would feel if you'd lost everything and someone was pointing a camera at you. In many cases they didn't choose to be homeless....

Or you can go the open route, sit, have a chat, talk to your subject, learn about them..

Be comfortable with your camera, and know how to set it with your eyes closed, so you can adjust the settings in your pocket before you take out the camera. Fiddling with a camera while trying to hold a conversation is not only rude it won't get you the shots you want....Also think about the type of the camera you are using...A big camera with a big lens is likely to freak your subject out, when you are close to them, but a smaller camera dull (not silver and shiny) might be better for the job..

Also be aware of what's happening around you, while the people you're chatting to might be happy, all it takes is one in a group, or someone new joining the group and suddenly you might find yourself in a whole different scenario...another reason for having a discreet camera..

So think about what you want to do and go from there..

If it was me I'd go out a by an old Pentax k1000 with a 28mm lens, and shoot on Tmax 400 (all for probably around 30 now, dev the film myself and scan the good shots in)....I'm getting excited just thinking about the images .

Have fun, I would =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Always give the client a vertical-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-http://grahamsnook.wordpress.com/..

The people you're talking about in many cases, although not all, are where they are as a result of events which led them to that place. No one starts of wanting to live on the street ! It's dangerous, unpleasant, dreary, unhealthy in the extreme and not a "life choice". Imagine how appalling your life would need to be before living on the street becomes more attractive !.

They have, in the majority, fallen between the large gaps we leave in our social fabric. They are social accidents at best, and our fault at worst. And it is only our fault that they are left like that..

The minority of professional beggars should not be confused with the majority of people forced into that life by circumstances they were unable to control..

The next time you're looking for a label try "people", or something like that..

The expression which comes to mind is "There, But For The Grace Of God, Go I"..

StephenG.

Fuji S9600Fuji S5200Fuji F30Fuji E900Canon A710ISPCLinuxOS..

Well, English is not my mother tongue but I thought that, at least in the US, bum is used for tramp. I didn't mean to imply it was a chosen or deserved status..

I'm old enough to know that sh*t happens to everybody, even to lazy motherf*ckers. .

Thanks for the lecture, anyway.  Regards.

My Galleries:http://webs.ono.com/igonzalezbordes/index.html..

Using people laid on the street as an element of funny compositions.

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"Gee! Would you believe what we saw in Barcelona!".

Regards.

My Galleries:http://webs.ono.com/igonzalezbordes/index.html..