My standard advice is, if you HAVE a lens that isn't junk, buy a body that fits it; if you don't have any lenses, then Canon seems to be a better package for a number of reasons including the camera features and the lens offerings right now. Those who start with Nikon seem to be doing it out of loyalty to the market conditions in the 70s and 80s. I'm not slagging Nikon, I honestly think they have a pretty good product line and worth sticking with them if you already have some investment, but they're just not quite good enough to win over Canon for the first-timers in this decade. The Olympuses and Kodaks and others are quite a bit behind the leaders..

[ e d @ h a l l e yc c ] http://www.halley.cc/pix/..

You could consider a Nikon D50i think it's a good camera and a good learning tool.

Im an Oly user, so it's an unbiased opinion.

Riley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah..

JG30 wrote:.

Option? Pentax I find promising but right now the options for longerzooms aren't there. And the autofocus doesn't seem to be AS fast asNikon or Canon, something I believe my needs justify(?). The DA* linecould rectify this though but because anything has yet to be releaseda comparison is hard to do. They also have the affordability on theirside though..

It really depends on how the camera feels to you. Outside of sports shooting, I cannot see how the AF speed will be any issue with your other interests. Yes Pentax is lacking in long, fast zooms but there are plenty of slower zooms which do an excellent job. And if you can live with manual focus, then you can pick up some excellent used manual focus zooms as well such as the older A70-210/4 or one of the older Tokina of Sigma MF 80-200/2.8s. Canon and Nikon have always had a much larger system than Pentax but you need to really assess your needs. If you plan to end up with long, fast glass or need fast telephoto support then Canon would be the way to go as they have a full range of fast zooms and teles....but you will definitely pay for those..

Pentax probably has more mid priced glass available when you consider all the available lenses, both AF and MF, form all the third party manufacturers, though it is getting harder to find these days..

If flash is important, then Nikon from all I've read had the best flash system..

For macro work, it is a toss up as there are very good macro lenses available for all three systems..

My personal bias if for Pentax due to the value I believe you get for your money right now with the K100D. But then I've also shot Pentax since I was in high school and had amassed a large collection of glass so it would have been silly for me to have swtiched to another system..

JohnPentax *ist-D, K100D, Fuji F20/31fd, Oly Stylushttp://www.pbase.com/jglover..

Yes I have considered the D50, but they seem to be hard for me to find. Ebay people sell them but with nothing but the camera. Then I have to hunt down the accessories which is somewhat of a pain to me..

But this still doesn't answer the question. Would you then say that Nikon would be the best system for my needs?.

From my limited knowledge of the field and research I think I should be looking for the following;.

* Speed of both AF system and continuous shooting mode* Relatively quiet shutter to not scare animals* Low light performance* Good selection of tele-zoom lenses and primes. (200mm, 300mm, even 400mm).

Nikon and Canon both seem to address all those issues in their current lineups. Boths lower end offerings (D40, D50, XTi, even the XT) offer enough to satisfy those needs I think (?). But again to get lenses with VR/IS and AF they seem to cost a good deal of money. Some I see myself spending more with either of these two companies..

Pentax at the moment only has 2 models worth my consideration, K100D and the more expensive K10D. The K100D could fit in anyones budget. It doesn't perform well with continuous shooting. I don't think the AF is as fast as the Nikon/Canon offerings, but I could be wrong. It is also much louder. The K10D addresses the continuous shooting issue and I believe AF is much improved.

Things I would assume get quieter and better with the release of the SDM lenses over time. Price of entry is much better then the cometition it seems. Pentax seems to be something that might turn out be be a great system within the next year or two. But right now it could be viewed as a risk for my needs until we see them perform..

Do my views seem right?.

Rriley wrote:.

You could consider a Nikon D50i think it's a good camera and a good learning tool.

I'm an Oly user, so it's an unbiased opinion.

Riley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah..

It sounds like you've researched the Canon and Nikon offerings and found them able to suit your needs with nearly the same results or quality. That is actually a big step that many don't get to. Your detailed requirements and clear goals really help the process..

Have you held either of them? I keep seeing people post how they just can't stand how one feels vs the other. It would appear to me that some people make the brand choice by camera feel. I also seen quite a few comments on how people either love the controls of one or hate the controls of the other. I have only really used Canon but I find it hard to see how the controls could matter THAT much but I've read it enough to believe it..

If Canon and Nikon have what you need and appear roughly the same, it might come down which one feels better in your hands or is organized more logically to your brain..

Good luck..

Misc equip : Canon 610, Canon 400D, Canon 10D (about to sell), EF 50mm f/1.8 II, EF 85mm f/1.8 USM, EF 24mm f/2.8 (not so sure about)..

Canon or kniokn are it , for your needs. Now, go pick up a camera dn handle it..

I came over form Minolta (now Sony) and decided on Canon. Even though I actually prefered Nikons ergonomics. Canon had morel ens choices and greater availability. Nikon comes out with somethign new adn you got to wait, then wait some more, then wait some more..

Dave PattersonMidwestshutterbug.com'When the light and composition are strong, nobodynotices things like resolution or pincushion distortion'Gary Friedman..

I just want to address this one part. I have felt all the cameras out there at all the different price points (Nikon, Canon, Pentax). The Nikon and Pentax lines are a toss up as far as feel is concerned for me. The Nikon might have a slight edge due to the lighter bodies, but not enough to make my decision on what "system" to go with. The Canon is a clear third for me. The high end stuff is remarkable but I wouldn't purchase anything from Canon except the XTi right now at the lower end.

The XTi, I can live with but that means then I need to consider similar offerings from Nikon and Pentax (D80, K10D)..

If you can tell from my post above I'm still really trying to see "what" is important when considering the systems for my needs. Thats what I really need help with to start with (and then recommendations). Do my thoughts seem right in my post above?.

John Glover wrote:.

It really depends on how the camera feels to you...

I can say that both Nikon and Canon have a layout that I can handle just fine. I don't find the extra 1 or 2 presses of a button to be a deal breaker. Within 10-20 minutes I learned how to navigate to all the important settings in all of these cameras. I'm a gadget/tech geek so things like this I pick up fast. Visually I like Nikons lower end a tad bit more because it feels more up to date, something I'm sure will get addressed if Canon comes out with a new lower end model camera. Nikon just coming to market with new offers I believes gives the preception that they have a slight advantage since Canon's offerings to the prosumer market are older (great still but older).

But Pentax IMO probably has the best built/looking lenses that are still affordable..

And that is STILL a major thing. I don't want to get into a Nikon system and find that lens choices to help me expand are going to run me a fortune. Same goes for Canon. I wonder what peoples take is on which one is more affordable. This goes back to long term investment!.

Pretzelb wrote:.

It sounds like you've researched the Canon and Nikon offerings andfound them able to suit your needs with nearly the same results orquality. That is actually a big step that many don't get to. Yourdetailed requirements and clear goals really help the process..

Have you held either of them? I keep seeing people post how they justcan't stand how one feels vs the other. It would appear to me thatsome people make the brand choice by camera feel. I also seen quite afew comments on how people either love the controls of one or hatethe controls of the other. I have only really used Canon but I findit hard to see how the controls could matter THAT much but I've readit enough to believe it..

If Canon and Nikon have what you need and appear roughly the same, itmight come down which one feels better in your hands or is organizedmore logically to your brain..

Good luck...

JG30 wrote:.

Yes I have considered the D50, but they seem to be hard for me tofind. Ebay people sell them but with nothing but the camera. Then Ihave to hunt down the accessories which is somewhat of a pain to me..

Hard to find with good reason, it's a camera worth hanging onto.

But this still doesn't answer the question. Would you then say thatNikon would be the best system for my needs?.

Considering you begin with an older rig, and work up to something more capable...yes. I have some aversion to 350D as opposed to D50.

From my limited knowledge of the field and research I think I shouldbe looking for the following;.

* Speed of both AF system and continuous shooting mode.

Make that 'accurate AF', Ive lost faith with Canons 'mostly' very good AF.

* Relatively quiet shutter to not scare animals.

Any dSLR is going to have mirror slap and be noisy, and smaller mirrors are less noisy.

* Low light performance.

They are all roughly equal at iso1600 (even Olys now, but not older ones).

But it looks like Nikon's D40 is better than XTi, Im thinking that trend will continue.

Bigger Canons like 30D are a different story, but much more expensive. To me Canon arnt going to be looking after there low end customers as well. Another factor is the 'error 19' stuff thats happening with Canon, a s/h camera would leave you without warrantee support, and undesirable outcomes.

* Good selection of tele-zoom lenses and primes. (200mm, 300mm, even400mm).

Theres nothing in Nikons lenses that will let you down there, even some Oly users use them, but as an aside neither they nor Canon do very good ultra wide angle.

Nikon and Canon both seem to address all those issues in theircurrent lineups. Boths lower end offerings (D40, D50, XTi, even theXT) offer enough to satisfy those needs I think (?)..

Yes thats right, excepting D40's 3 AF points v/s 400D with 9, but properly handled 3 point AF is fine to use, it's a matter of technique.

But again to getlenses with VR/IS and AF they seem to cost a good deal of money. SomeI see myself spending more with either of these two companies..

D40 lenses (being a more limited suite) do seem more expensive.

This is why I suggested D50, next stop when you are ready D80/200 or their successors.

Pentax at the moment only has 2 models worth my consideration, K100Dand the more expensive K10D. The K100D could fit in anyones budget.It doesn't perform well with continuous shooting.Do my views seem right?.

Im not really qualified to speak about Pentax/Sony. My feeling is wait a bit for Pentax while we see whats happening with Hoya. Im a bit troubled about their circumstances.

But I think the strategy of buying a s/h body is an acutely good one, but with the proviso that you do need to be as sure as you can that it's good. I have bought 2 bodies on ebay and been well served.Riley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah..

Rriley wrote:.

Any dSLR is going to have mirror slap and be noisy, and smaller mirrors are less >noisy.

Do you think then this should be something I should consider when making my decision based on my needs? Pentax K100D is really the only one I see this being an issue with. Much louder then the others (even the K10D), plus noisy AF since it doesn't have SDM yet..

They are all roughly equal at iso1600 (even Olys now, but not older ones) but it >looks like Nikon's D40 is better than XTi, Im thinking that trend will continue >bigger Canons like 30D are a different story, but much more expensive. To me >Canon arnt going to be looking after there low end customers as well. Another >factor is the 'error 19' stuff thats happening with Canon, a s/h camera would >leave you without warrantee support, and undesirable outcomes.

Yes, this is my fear and something I to think seems to be likely. Canon doesn't seem to care much right now about coming out with better/newer/more aggresively priced options for the prosumer market..

Theres nothing in Nikons lenses that will let you down there, even some Oly >users use them, but as an aside neither they nor Canon do very good ultra wide >angle.

Since it seems you know Oly pretty well I have a question for you. I don't think right now I'm ready to shell out for the 510 even if it is a very nice camera. What about the 500? Or would it make more sense to get a Nikon, Canon, Pentax, etc. now and maybe when the 510 goes down in price and I still like it swap over? I believe that 3/4 allows the use of lenses from all the other companies, correct? How does that work exactly?.

D40 lenses (being a more limited suite) do seem more expensive this is why I >suggested D50, next stop when you are ready D80/200 or their successors.

We think very much alike on this. If you know of a good place to get a D50 let me know. I'm still looking. Or should I just grab the D40 18-55mm kit including a 1GB mem card for ~$460 I found from someone that has only had a few hundred shots on it?..

Ed Halley wrote:.

The Olympuses and Kodaks and others are quite a bit behind the leaders..

The 'Olympuses' are probably the most innovative DSLR maker out there right now. Pentax is also good and innovative - small bodies and superb compact lenses..

If I handn't made my investment in a Nikon system, I'd be looking very seriously at the Olympus 4/3 system, and maybe the Pentax..

I'm not a pixel peeper, I just go on results and I have seen jaw-dropping, gallery-sized prints from a 5MP Olympus E1..

The thing that bothered me was that they came out with a stunning flagship camera (the E1) but then nothing happened for years! More lenses, good lenses too, but no more pro, or even semi-pro E-System bodies. I wouldn't say their E400/E500 were even semi-pro bodies, even though they are very nice, capable cameras..

There are more systems around than just the Canon and Nikon ones. Oly and Pentax have a good, long track record with top professionals. C&N are generally used by the 'crowd' - in which I include myself...

JG30 wrote:.

We think very much alike on this. If you know of a good place to geta D50 let me know. I'm still looking. Or should I just grab the D4018-55mm kit including a 1GB mem card for ~$460 I found from someonethat has only had a few hundred shots on it?.

For a used D50 or D80, tryhttp://www.KEH.com.

There warranty and return policy is good, so I ma told. I have never had to use it. You can also compare used lenses there.Chris, Broussard, LA..

JG30 wrote:.

And that is STILL a major thing. I don't want to get into a Nikonsystem and find that lens choices to help me expand are going to runme a fortune. Same goes for Canon. I wonder what peoples take is onwhich one is more affordable. This goes back to long term investment!.

If I guess a little from what you've written so far I'd say you're leaning toward Pentax and Nikon and not Canon so much. I think you want to like Pentax but can't because of some real issues with your requirements. So that would lead me to think Nikon is good for you..

But here's one thing to consider ... it is an investment but you can get out of it too. I have no experience with heavy selling but it seems the market for used equipment is pretty darn good. If you were to go Nikon and get a collection of 5 lenses, you could sell all that and switch to something else without too much trouble. Sure you may not be able to afford everything but it's not like a car that depreciates a huge amount. Or at least I don't think it is as bad..

I could be wrong but as long as the body gives you the functions you need like noise for wildlife or speed for sports the most important thing is the glass. It seems like bodies are just mechanics that get tweaked but don't differ all that much when in the same price range. The glass is what stays consistent as you keep your collection so that is what you should focus on..

If you can find the lenses that appeal to you the most then (assuming you can meeting your basic needs with the camera body) I think that's the key..

Misc equip : Canon 610, Canon 400D, Canon 10D (about to sell), EF 50mm f/1.8 II, EF 85mm f/1.8 USM, EF 24mm f/2.8 (not so sure about)..

Well I went to the store again today and this time I brought the girlfriend since she is better at making decisions for me. .

The conclusion she came to is that she does not like the K100D as much as the Nikon D40 and Canon XTi..

This may be a shock but I actually got use to the feel of the Canon the more I held it. Still not as nice as the Nikon but not as bad as I remember it being. The grip is obviously still a tad to small and for some reason the shutter button feels positioned a bit to forward..

In the end I think the Canon is a bit more then I need right now. I can't honestly look at the 350D because I really dislike the feel of that camera. It feels like junk in my hand. When I do actually need to move up both Canon and Nikon have plenty of choices so that isn't an issue. I just feel like I'd be paying a premium for the XTi that IMO is a bit outdated in some respects. The D40 appears to me to do everything I would need of it for much less.

I'm a patient person though and I have plenty of time to wait for more choices. I have to admit that it is a bit of going out on the ledge with the D40 since this is the first Nikon without a motor in the body, but I honestly think that this is the way a majority of their lenses will be in the future, if only to compete more with Canon. And seeing as I don't actually own any old glass I don't think it will be a problem. Plus I can always MF till I own something with a AF motor in the body (D200)..

I thought hard about the D50, but I think it might be to much of a hassle to get one. Does anyone think that a used D40 18-55mm kit w/ 1GB card with about 600 shots for ~$460 is a bad deal? Should I pull the trigger on this deal?..

JG30 wrote:.

Well I went to the store again today and this time I brought thegirlfriend since she is better at making decisions for me. .

Does anyone think that a used D40 18-55mm kit w/.

1GB card with about 600 shots for ~$460 is a bad deal? Should I pullthe trigger on this deal?.

That's not the best deal in the world, but not too bad.Chris, Broussard, LA..

JG30 wrote:.

Rriley wrote:.

Any dSLR is going to have mirror slap and be noisy, and smaller mirrors are less >noisy.

Do you think then this should be something I should consider whenmaking my decision based on my needs? Pentax K100D is really the onlyone I see this being an issue with. Much louder then the others (eventhe K10D), plus noisy AF since it doesn't have SDM yet..

No, I wouldnt base camera choice on this alone, you could make a muffler for the camera like some wildlife photogs used to do in the film era when motor drives and shutters where quite noisy. The quietest dSLR shutter I know of is Olympus E-1, but I dont think it's the camera for you..

They are all roughly equal at iso1600 (even Olys now, but not older ones) but it >looks like Nikon's D40 is better than XTi, Im thinking that trend will continue >bigger Canons like 30D are a different story, but much more expensive. To me >Canon arnt going to be looking after there low end customers as well. Another >factor is the 'error 19' stuff thats happening with Canon, a s/h camera would >leave you without warrantee support, and undesirable outcomes.

Yes, this is my fear and something I to think seems to be likely.Canon doesn't seem to care much right now about coming out withbetter/newer/more aggresively priced options for the prosumer market..

Theres nothing in Nikons lenses that will let you down there, even some Oly >users use them, but as an aside neither they nor Canon do very good ultra wide >angle.

Since it seems you know Oly pretty well I have a question for you. Idon't think right now I'm ready to shell out for the 510 even if itis a very nice camera. What about the 500? Or would it make moresense to get a Nikon, Canon, Pentax, etc. now and maybe when the 510goes down in price and I still like it swap over? I believe that 3/4allows the use of lenses from all the other companies, correct? Howdoes that work exactly?.

The 500 is a lot less capable than 510, I would say 510 has two stops on noise performance too, otherwise I would have suggested that (the twin lens kit is a pretty good deal) You can use other lenses from other systems, but they become manual focus..

D40 lenses (being a more limited suite) do seem more expensive this is why I >suggested D50, next stop when you are ready D80/200 or their successors.

We think very much alike on this. If you know of a good place to geta D50 let me know. I'm still looking. Or should I just grab the D4018-55mm kit including a 1GB mem card for ~$460 I found from someonethat has only had a few hundred shots on it?.

Since I live rurally in .au we dont cross the same streets, advise you take the price of that D40 down to the Nikon dSLR forum and ask them there. It wouldnt be a terrible camera for you, but you need to get a handle on what long glass costs first. noise performance of D40 exceeds XTi to my mind, and it's a very good entry dSLR > excepting the lens issue.

Riley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah..

JG30 wrote:.

Hello,.

Well I tried to get recommendations before to no avail. I'm going totry again and see if I have better luck this time..

I am mainly looking to photograph...1.) Wildlife (insects, birds, flowers, hairy 4 legged creatures)2.) Sports (racing, baseball, maybe some football)3.) Landscaping4.) City Night ShotsOf course the camera will be used for plenty of other things I'msure, but those are my main priorities in that order..

My goal right now is to get in on the lower end, over the next fewyears gather some good lenses for my needs, and then upgrade thecamera body and retire the current one to backup purposes andgirlfriend usage. I'll probably always stay 1 or 2 steps behind thetrend to save myself some money as well..

So onto my question....

People constantly say your buying more then a camera, your buying asystem. I understand that. So what I'm asking is what system should Igo with...Nikon, Canon, Pentax, etc.? I'm considering now and intothe future..

It seems to me that Canon and Nikon have better selections for myneeds right now. Both are expensive it seems to me. Which one wouldyou pick between the two? Which is the more "affordable" long termoption? Pentax I find promising but right now the options for longerzooms aren't there. And the autofocus doesn't seem to be AS fast asNikon or Canon, something I believe my needs justify(?). The DA* linecould rectify this though but because anything has yet to be releaseda comparison is hard to do. They also have the affordability on theirside though..

So please offer your insight, opinions, advice!.

First of all, I wonder if you will be able to find any camera that is really ideally suited to fulfill all your requiremenst, except maybe some very high end pro-bodies like the Canon EOS 1D or the Nikon D2Xs. There are, on the other hand, no really bad D-SLR's out there right now. Most will be the best in their class at one point or another, but none are perfect. Mostly it's a matter of feel, of emotion, that will in the end help you make a choice..

You may have heared about the very fast AF-systems on Canon or Nikons, but keep in mind that no lower end model, like D50's, XTi's, *ist's, etc. really do perform that great in AF- and buffering speed. The 'fast' reputation of Canon is mostly based on the performance of the much more expensive prosumer and professional bodies, not on the Rebels and XTi's..

Looking at what you want, I'd say: go for the Pentax K10D. It outperforms the Nikon D80 and Canon XTi and completely blows away the D40, D50, E500, etc. Added bonus is that you may use older (even MF) lenses on this body, that can be found for very little money. Remember: the Pentax K-mount is probably the most widely used lensemount around, and has been since the late seventies. Canon doesn't offer that kind of compatibility at all and used Nikon lenses ar much more expensive than Pentax K-models. That's what is meant with buying into a system!.

And no, I'm not biassed, I don't use any Pentax stuff myself, but if I had to start from scratch right now, the K10D would be my number one option..

Good luck deciding,Peter.

There's no problem so big that you can't run away from it!..

Ringwraith69 wrote:.

First of all, I wonder if you will be able to find any camera that isreally ideally suited to fulfill all your requiremenst, except maybesome very high end pro-bodies like the Canon EOS 1D or the NikonD2Xs. There are, on the other hand, no really bad D-SLR's out thereright now. Most will be the best in their class at one point oranother, but none are perfect. Mostly it's a matter of feel, ofemotion, that will in the end help you make a choice..

You may have heared about the very fast AF-systems on Canon orNikons, but keep in mind that no lower end model, like D50's, XTi's,*ist's, etc. really do perform that great in AF- and buffering speed.The 'fast' reputation of Canon is mostly based on the performance ofthe much more expensive prosumer and professional bodies, not on theRebels and XTi's..

Looking at what you want, I'd say: go for the Pentax K10D. Itoutperforms the Nikon D80 and Canon XTi and completely blows away theD40, D50, E500, etc. Added bonus is that you may use older (even MF)lenses on this body, that can be found for very little money.Remember: the Pentax K-mount is probably the most widely usedlensemount around, and has been since the late seventies. Canondoesn't offer that kind of compatibility at all and used Nikon lensesar much more expensive than Pentax K-models. That's what is meantwith buying into a system!.

And no, I'm not biassed, I don't use any Pentax stuff myself, but ifI had to start from scratch right now, the K10D would be my numberone option..

Good luck deciding,Peter.

There's no problem so big that you can't run away from it!.

I don't expect any camera, especially in my price range, to do everything I want perfectly. But I'd like to think that when faced with a choice I would get what fits my needs best..

I fail to see though how these low end models aren't "fast". The D40 is plenty fast for me. Sure it doesn't do 5fps or anything, but continuous shooting is unlimited in JPEG and I've played with it enough to know it's AF is plenty fast/accurate/and quiet for my needs and I think it is faster then any other option in it's price range..

If I was seriously looking into the XTi, I would probably take more of a look at the K10D. But I think it is a little out of my range for a first DSLR. I like Pentax but as someone else said, they don't seem to have the system that will fill my needs. If someone can prove that wrong then I'll pick up a K100D and use that for a year until I am more experienced and then look into a K10D or whatever else they come out with...

The K100D special with the K10D AS and SDM lens compatability may be worth the wait...

All great comments and interesting thread. How about the Sony A100, I feel that will fit your needs as well as has IS in the body. Only draw back that I am seeing today is the amount of lenses that are available....however, based on what you like to shoot, I am not so sure this might not be the camera of choice. I myself, am deciding between the Sony A100 and Nikon D80. I currently am shooting with a Sony DSC-H5. How does the Sony A100 fit into the mix in everyone's opinion?..

K1000Photographer wrote:.

The K100D special with the K10D AS and SDM lens compatability may beworth the wait..

Yep. I have thrown this idea around a lot..

I sat down today and went through a few websites and looked at what is available for telephoto zooms from Canon & Nikon. I held both to the same criteria. They had to be lenses with stabilization (IS/VR) and they had to AF (only a Nikon issue). What I found actually surprised me..

CANON:200mm zoom:No affordable options. Only offering they have is L glass and $1k and up..

300mm zoom:1 real affordable option.70-300mm = $650http://www.beachcamera.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=CN70300USMIS.

They have one other offering that is this same range lens but a compact (DO) and is also over $1k..

*Removing IS and you get a bunch more options. But I think IS is very important.*.

NIKON:200mm zoom:55-200mm = $226http://www.beachcamera.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=NK55200VR18-200mm = $900 (little high for me but a lot of range there)http://www.beachcamera.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=NK18200G.

300mm zoom:70-300mm = $460http://www.beachcamera.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=NK70300AFSVR.

*Remove VR and you get both these same lenses for $180 & $140 respectively.*.

Both have very similar 3rd party lenses at the same price range. So I'm not even going to bother listing all those..

So my point? Just look at the prices for the zooms I'm interested in. Canon doesn't have anything I would consider affordable in the 200mm zoom range. Nikon has a very affordable option. Even at the 300mm range the Nikon offering is cheaper..

Now if someone can give me the available options from Pentax that fit that criteria that would be a help...

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

There is a system available for Pentax....you just may have to get second hand and be patient for some things. As to a stabilised autofocus zoom....well for Pentax that includes the third party ones as well. I just saw a Tamron af 80-210 zoom for around $100 Australian new yesterday (dropped from $149)...thats around $85 US...there are a few other options there as well..but since I have 3 zooms that go to 200 already I have not been looking ....except for a 2.8 which is out of my price range (2 are manual focus that followed me home from a pawn shop...and one is better than my af sigma 28-200 that has been lurking around here since the days of film)..

Neil.

Link back to flickrhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/26884588@N00/..

I'll take a few of those big ones in the back. .

Well here is something interesting, I found a local classic camera store that sells a TON of old Pentax lenses and old Pentax camera bodies. They have a very good stock. Maybe I'll still go Pentax. I'm still not sure. Went and held a Pentax again today. They didn't have batteries in it so they had to put brand new ones in and the continuous shooting and autofocus was MUCH better then the last time I tried it.

I also asked the lady if they had any D50's laying around and she said no they sold them out real quick when they went discontinued. She had a D70 she let me play around with though. .

Nikon, Pentax, Nikon, Pentax.....

Just a note. If you think the focus speed of the D40 is fast (in decent light) you should try a D2 series Nikon. I have the D2H and it will snap into focus in light that I could not quickly manual focus and on items without much contrast. If you are not a pixel nut, don't mind a heavier body and are not scared by "old technology" think about a used D2H. Warning, if you get one, you will be spoiled by the pro features, viewfinder and speed of the camera forever.Chris, Broussard, LA..

Personally I think canon or nikon both will work out fine for you. The differences between the 2 are small.

Nikon I think has a very small edge in flash and consumer lens and canon get it for noise but none the less I think all these differences are very small.

I wouldnt waste time trying to figure out whch is a better camera or system , they are both great systems.

I would go by feel , how does the camera feel in my hands , how easy is it for me to make adjustmentsTo do this you need to go to the camera store and handle the camera.

Now, if you were comparing one of the smaller brands (notice I didnt mention a smaller brand to advoid flames) of cameras to a nikon or canon then I would be yelling at you to look at the system.

But the difference between nikon and canon isnt as big as some would have you believejust go handle a few camerasTomsee my ugly pics at :http://www.pbase.com/tom1468..

Tom1468 wrote:.

Now, if you were comparing one of the smaller brands (notice I didntmention a smaller brand to advoid flames) of cameras to a nikon orcanon then I would be yelling at you to look at the system.

This is buying into a system? How is it not possible for anyone in any other system?.

No offence but every time I see a post from someone who says only Nikon or Canon as a system but does not have anything not easily obtainable as an equivalent...well I just gotta wonder.YOUR Gear :Nikon D80Nikon 50 f1.8Nikon 105 f2.8 Manual everythingNikon 18-135 f3.5-5.6Nikon 70-300vrNikon sb600Manfrotto 725b tripod.

Just go handle a few cameras.

Good advice!.

Tomsee my ugly pics at :http://www.pbase.com/tom1468.

Neil..

As I've said over and over again I have handled a TON of cameras multiple times. In the last week I've held a D40, D70, D80, D200, K100D, K10D (only briefly though as this one is the hardest to find), XTi, XT, 30D, 5D and others that I'm probably forgetting. Just today I held the D40 and K100D for about 3 hours in the store, snapping shoots, going through menues, even took some and saved to my girls SD card for further review, and let her feel them more as they will eventually become backups for her to use as well. All this while talking to the girl behind the counter about a ton of things while she also showed me her personal D70. And, as what is the general consensuses among almost 90% of the people I've talked to, the Nikon has the clear advantage in ergonomics. Even the D80 felt easy enough to handle to me and my girlfriend.



The one thing I am afraid of with the Nikon line is how their images, IMO, don't look as natural as those I've seen from Pentax. Some might not share this feeling but in what way could I counteract this? Would in camera options be enough? Or only PP?..

I think hes evaluating systems based on the amount of cash he needs to part with, and examine what expansive potential is left at the end of it. Its an entirely rational approach and hes been doing pretty well so far. Handling actual cameras is important though granted..

Ive been mirroring his requirements with Olympus gear, with an eye to his final estimates just to see how close they are. Its as important for systems to be as competitive in price as it is in capability. So just to add some invectives I had a look at Pophotos few reviews to get a handle on comparative noise and AF speeds, the results are a little surprising..

Noise (low numbers best score)ISO1002004008001600K10D1.151.151.41.71.95E-5101.181.11.131.31.45D40xx.x.93.981.01.0.

AF Speed (low numbers best score)(EV) 1110864210(-1)K10D.......37.44.43.54.971.171.221.672.33e-510......35.44.55.69.74.84.951.14x.xxD40........49.54.57.59.64.97x.xx1.101.25.

Riley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah..

Neil holmes wrote:.

Tom1468 wrote:.

Now, if you were comparing one of the smaller brands (notice I didntmention a smaller brand to advoid flames) of cameras to a nikon orcanon then I would be yelling at you to look at the system.

This is buying into a system? How is it not possible for anyone inany other system?.

I never said it wasnt possible with any other system. I was refering to the size of canon or nikon which offer much more choice and for someone just starting , I would think this would offer them more options in the future.

No offence but every time I see a post from someone who says onlyNikon or Canon as a system but does not have anything not easilyobtainable as an equivalent...well I just gotta wonder.YOUR Gear :Nikon D80Nikon 50 f1.8Nikon 105 f2.8 Manual everythingNikon 18-135 f3.5-5.6Nikon 70-300vrNikon sb600Manfrotto 725b tripod.

Not sure what you mean by this but if you are refering to the fact that my current gear can be had or it's equivalent with any manufacture, probably right but I clearly have a larger upgrade path should I choose.

Just go handle a few cameras.

Good advice!.

I think so , it is the only advice that one can honestly giveI think the worse thing one can do is get bogged down in stats.

Tomsee my ugly pics at :http://www.pbase.com/tom1468.

Neil.

Tomsee my ugly pics at :http://www.pbase.com/tom1468..

JG30 wrote:.

The one thing I am afraid of with the Nikon line is how their images,IMO, don't look as natural as those I've seen from Pentax. Some mightnot share this feeling but in what way could I counteract this? Wouldin camera options be enough? Or only PP?.

I have a d80 and yes you can turn in camera options up to your likeingWould that be enough ? I dont know , I guess that would depend on each persons likeing.Tomsee my ugly pics at :http://www.pbase.com/tom1468..

JG30 wrote:.

18-200mm = $900 (little high for me but a lot of range there)http://www.beachcamera.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=NK18200G.

Shop around. b&h has it for $749 (and it is in stock at the moment too):.

Http://www.bhphotovideo.com/...Nikon_2159_18_200mm_f_3_5_5_6G_ED_IF_AF_S.html..

Gaussian blur wrote:.

JG30 wrote:.

18-200mm = $900 (little high for me but a lot of range there)http://www.beachcamera.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=NK18200G.

Shop around. b&h has it for $749 (and it is in stock at the momenttoo):.

Http://www.bhphotovideo.com/...Nikon_2159_18_200mm_f_3_5_5_6G_ED_IF_AF_S.html.

Hum have to look at the reviews of that lens then. Yea I just figured to make things easier on me and uniform I'd take prices from one site. I'm sure there are better deals on most of what I listed...

Tom1468 wrote:.

I have a d80 and yes you can turn in camera options up to yourlikeingWould that be enough ? I dont know , I guess that woulddepend on each persons likeing.Tomsee my ugly pics at :http://www.pbase.com/tom1468.

Not looking at turning them up as much as turning them down a tad. I find the image from a Nikon to be a bit to punchy. Dare I say, the default images I've seen look cartoonish. This seems to be regarded as "giving the general consumer what they want" and the mentality of P&S..

I know this ALL to well being an audio & video enthusiast. I find it sad watching people buy TV sets because the wife thinks the colors are so "vivid". Little do they understand that those colors are not accurate by any stretch of the imagination and that this is NOT open to debate of what "looks good" but what is "accurate". I'm sorry but real life does not look that way and if the images were calibrated to the appropriate standards set fourth by the industry then they would look as they were meant to and how the director wanted them to look. But seeing as the idiotic "consumer" likes to see sets under poor, very harsh, fluorescent lights in chain stores that have been calibrated by the factory to make every color look more "dynamic" then all us enthusiasts are stuck with having to break warranty rules to get into service modes to adjust gammas and balances so the image is acceptable..

Ok my rants over. ..

Rriley wrote:.

I think hes evaluating systems based on the amount of cash he needsto part with, and examine what expansive potential is left at the endof it. Its an entirely rational approach and hes been doing prettywell so far. Handling actual cameras is important though granted..

Ive been mirroring his requirements with Olympus gear, with an eye tohis final estimates just to see how close they are. Its as importantfor systems to be as competitive in price as it is in capability. Sojust to add some invectives I had a look at Pophotos few reviews toget a handle on comparative noise and AF speeds, the results are alittle surprising..

Noise (low numbers best score)ISO1002004008001600K10D1.151.151.41.71.95E-5101.181.11.131.31.45D40xx.x.93.981.01.0.

AF Speed (low numbers best score)(EV) 1110864210(-1)K10D.......37.44.43.54.971.171.221.672.33e-510......35.44.55.69.74.84.951.14x.xxD40........49.54.57.59.64.97x.xx1.101.25.

Riley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah.

You have to pardon my unfamiliarity with this subject. But what would contribute to the fast the D40 does not perform as well at high EV, but better at lower EV?.

And I must say you have hit the nail right on the head with your assessment. Thank goodness that there are some people here that do understand the approach without me having to spell everything out for them. I don't think I could have said it any better myself though, so thank you...

JG30 wrote:.

Noise (low numbers best score)ISO1002004008001600K10D1.151.151.41.71.95E-5101.181.11.131.31.45D40xx.x.93.981.01.0.

AF Speed (low numbers best score)(EV) 1110864210(-1)K10D.......37.44.43.54.971.171.221.672.33e-510......35.44.55.69.74.84.951.14x.xxD40........49.54.57.59.64.97x.xx1.101.25.

Riley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah.

You have to pardon my unfamiliarity with this subject. But what wouldcontribute to the fast the D40 does not perform as well at high EV,but better at lower EV?.

Pretty much all AF systems fallover when light gets very lowthats why they have included light levels as a part of the analysisyou will hear the AF motor hunt for a lock in low lightquestion is, when does that start to become an issueD40 is simply slower in AF all roundclearly though, it's generous iso performance rescues it's reputation.

Thing about entry to mid level cameras is they wont do it alloften you need to find someway to make them work for you.

And I must say you have hit the nail right on the head with yourassessment. Thank goodness that there are some people here that dounderstand the approach without me having to spell everything out forthem. I don't think I could have said it any better myself though, sothank you..

Riley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah..

I am similar to you in some ways yet different in others. Main difference being in priorities (mine are landscapes and night shots but still need a multi-purpose camera like u). Here is how I rate the current offers (in order):.

~1- Nikon D40/40X:.

Best offer mainly because of the quality of the kit lens (18-55mm) , which costs less than 100 (or $) when bought with the body, yet delivers image quality comparable IMO to lenses that cost at least 300-500Cons: Lacks all of the special features of Olympus E-510..

~2- Olympus E-510:.

Because of the many special features it has: Live view/ dust-buster / in-body IS / option to turn off or lower noise reduction when shooting JPG. Cons: Lower dynamic range and more noise at high ISO, also Olympus fails somehow to produce images as sharp and punchy as C, N, or even Panasonic L1 which has a FourThirds sensor (it's not a small sensor issue, has to do with the lenses or the processing)..

~3- Canon 400D (XTi):.

Biggest advantage with Canon is the image quality you get from their sensors/processors in terms of light interpretation / colour rendition / high ISO noise, also the wide range of lenses and bodies with different sensor sizes that can all take EF-lenses. Cons: Worst kit lens not really worth any money to be spent on it, also alomst none of the special features of the E-510 (Canon's dust reduction is still in it's infancy)..

~4- Pentax K10D:.

Really an excellent camera given the feature set and the price (currently is just a little bit more than XTi in Europe)..

Cons: Image quality problem, light interpretation and/or colour rendition are terribly wrong:.

Http://dpreview-img.fotki.com/...entaxk10d_samples/originals/imgp1113-acr.jpg.

Not only in the K10D but it's a hallmark of all Pentax DSLR's and for me at least this outweigh any advantage the camera has..

The Sony A100 and Panasonic L1 are better than K10D image-quality-wise but not feature-wise or price-wise..

Ahmed Elnagar..

PixelMinded wrote:.

~4- Pentax K10D:Really an excellent camera given the feature set and the price(currently is just a little bit more than XTi in Europe).Cons: Image quality problem, light interpretation and/or colourrendition are terribly wrong:.

Http://dpreview-img.fotki.com/...entaxk10d_samples/originals/imgp1113-acr.jpgnot only in the K10D but it's a hallmark of all Pentax DSLR's and forme at least this outweigh any advantage the camera has.Ahmed Elnagar.

Well if you read other reviews, other then just the one here at DPreviews, you will see that others have actually gone to the length of adjusting the settings as to get the appropriate picture from it. This is only really a jpeg issue and not a RAW issue. EVERY site has said that. The problem with DPreviews review is they don't really go into adjusting the settings and that is really where the K10D shines from what I've been told. The out of box image will leave much to be desired but is changing a few settings really that hard? Just type in Google K10 reviews and read some of the other well known sites that went MUCH more in depth with the camera. I forget the site off hand right now but they showed shots before and after the adjustments and compared both to RAW.

Also, take a look as some of the photos taken with it by people OTHER then reviewers and I think you will see that it is an incredible camera..

The 510 has come up, why I'm not 100% sure. It is much more expensive then the offerings I was considering. The 410 is something I won't consider because of the ergonomics. So the 500 is the only one worth mentioning right now and from what I've read, it doesn't offer as much as the other cameras I'm considering. The D40, K100D, and XTi were the only ones I was really considering right now. I ruled the XTi out because from what I've looked at they don't have economical choices of lenses in the range I'm looking for.

You can see this is the post I made earlier comparing the 200mm and 300mm ranges. The Canon offers me high $1k glass options,but big whoop, I'm never going to buy that stuff as I will simple never be good enough or demanding enough to warrant it..

So what I decided to do next is look at what I would most likely be upgrading to down the line. Seeing as I like to stay a step behind the D80 & K10D would seem to be the next logical cameras that I would purchase between the two brands. Now this debate of D80 to K10D is even harder then the D40 to K100D. I'm hoping today I can get some more time with the K10D. The D80 was impressive every time I've held it. You almost forget that it is almost as good as a D200 that weights considerably more.



Also these thread has really taken off into a comparison of cameras when it's main intent was for comparing systems. It's ok though as it has still been very helpful, just though I would point that out...

Rriley wrote:.

Pretty much all AF systems fallover when light gets very lowthats why they have included light levels as a part of the analysisyou will hear the AF motor hunt for a lock in low lightquestion is, when does that start to become an issueD40 is simply slower in AF all roundclearly though, it's generous iso performance rescues it's reputation.

Thing about entry to mid level cameras is they wont do it alloften you need to find someway to make them work for youRiley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah.

Yea I realize that I'm never going to satisfy all my needs. I've come to that conclusion a while ago..

That test still really surprises me. The D80 has very similar performance to the D40 if you look it up too. The D80 and K10D are really what people would be considering against each other. And almost every site I've read has stated that the D40/D40x/D80 autofocus very fast. Just look at dpreview and you will see that statement in the Pros for the camera. Pentax on the other hand always gets looked at as having a slower focusing system.

Or am I reading those values wrong?..

JG30 wrote:.

Yea I realize that I'm never going to satisfy all my needs. I've cometo that conclusion a while ago..

That test still really surprises me. The D80 has very similarperformance to the D40 if you look it up too. The D80 and K10D arereally what people would be considering against each other. Andalmost every site I've read has stated that the D40/D40x/D80autofocus very fast. Just look at dpreview and you will see thatstatement in the Pros for the camera. Pentax on the other hand alwaysgets looked at as having a slower focusing system.

Or am Ireading those values wrong?.

Well the results are somewhat variable.

D40 begins in bright light with AF speeds that are rather poor, but goes on to be best in low light (right of scale) where K10D begins to suffer badly in low light.

Image control:Zoom outZoom 100%Zoom inExpand AllOpen in new window.

Http://www.popphoto.com/cameras/3512/camera-test-pentax-k10d.htmlRiley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah..

The image I linked from the K10D gallery on this site was shot in RAW (so how come you think it's JPG issue). I have seen many many Pentax SLR images online and what I described as light/colour issue is so common that I sometimes can correctly identify Pentax images blindly. For reviews I've also seen the dcresource reviews (K10/K100) + imaging-resources K10 review. My remark is a very consistent one among the various Pentax DSLR images I've seen, it may be related to either Pentax glass or something in their in-camera processing/image-storage or whatever thing which effects even RAW. DPR K10 review talk about the default sharpness settings and thats a totally different issue, am talking about colour/light not sharpness. Hopefully Pentax can overcome this in upcoming models they will then definitely become #3 after Nikon & Canon if not better, anyhow that's just my opinion, wish you good luck with whatever choice you make in the end..

Ahmed Elnagar..

PixelMinded wrote:.

The image I linked from the K10D gallery on this site was shot in RAW(so how come you think it's JPG issue). I have seen many many PentaxSLR images online and what I described as light/colour issue is socommon that I sometimes can correctly identify Pentax images blindly.For reviews I've also seen the dcresource reviews (K10/K100) +imaging-resources K10 review. My remark is a very consistent oneamong the various Pentax DSLR images I've seen, it may be related toeither Pentax glass or something in their in-cameraprocessing/image-storage or whatever thing which effects even RAW.DPR K10 review talk about the default sharpness settings and thats atotally different issue, am talking about colour/light not sharpness.Hopefully Pentax can overcome this in upcoming models they will thendefinitely become #3 after Nikon & Canon if not better, anyhowthat's just my opinion, wish you good luck with whatever choice you makein the end..

Ahmed Elnagar.

I'm not sure but I haven't heard any complaints about the color or lighting from the K10D. Every review I've seen has raved about the RAW quality. And all the images I've seen look incredible life like. So I'm not really sure. But 1 image is not enough to make me think there is a problem...

Rriley wrote:.

Well the results are somewhat variableD40 begins in bright light with AF speeds that are rather poor, butgoes on to be best in low light (right of scale) where K10D begins tosuffer badly in low lightRiley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah.

This is interesting though. I mean even at PopPhoto they classify the AF as slow. But the values at the brighter end as some of the fastest I've seen. Yes I see it fall off at lower light but follow my logic for a second..

Wouldn't I want better AF speed in brighter light? Where AF would most likely become an issue would be taking nature shots and in sporting events. Both of these things I really only see myself doing during the day. The only thing in my requirements that would lead to low light shots would be taking pictures of the city at night. In these cases I'm more likely to be taking pictures of the buildings from over the river and speed doesn't exactly seem all that important in those situations..

Also doesn't this have a lot to do with the lens used? I've read that the 18-55mm Nikon lens uses an old motor from the 80's and that some of the other lenses have a much better AF motor. Same thing could be said about Pentax in that once they release SDM I would expect AF performance to get better..

It just seems strange to me that with all the hype around in lens AF and stabilization that you wouldn't see more of a linear performance gain...

I cant speak with any authority on other AF systemsbut anecdotally I would say that the lens and AF motor have a lot to do with it.

Kit lenses arnt known for their good performance, some like canon's are down right embarrassing. If the min stop is already pretty dark you begin at a defect and usually it wont get any better from there..

There isnt a lot of data on comparing AF speeds out there, it was pretty much a happenstance to find this, as they have kit lenses to work with .... that advantaged Pentax/Olympus. But still, it is what it is.Riley.

I like to think the bs can never be higher than the ah..

It was the realism that drew me to Pentax. Digicams and certain DSLR's just can not capture shading. Things are forced to be either light or dark and skin gets a plastic look. If you do not like it, then fine. Do not blame a product for getting things right...

JG30 wrote:.

Pentax I find promising but right now the options for longerzooms aren't there. And the autofocus doesn't seem to be AS fast asNikon or Canon, something I believe my needs justify(?)..

It's true for low light. In good light Pentax AF is also very fast..

Edvinas..