Jerseyjane wrote:.

I have a Nikon D50. Really botched my daughter's ballet recital.Had to shoot without a flash in a dark auditorium. Moving dancers ona lighted stage.Any suggestions on settings for the next time would be greatlyappreciated. Remember, I am not allowed to use a flash!.

How were the images botched?.

What lens were you using? How far away were you?.

For theatre, you need a fast lens, generally an f/2.8 zoom or even a 50mm f/1.4 or 85mm f/1.4. Which lens depends on how far away you are and whether you can move around in the auditorium (e.g. during a dress rehearsal) or if you are stuck in your seat..

Set the camera to ISO 800 or if it is very dimly lit, ISO 1600. A better option is set the camera to Auto-ISO with a reasonable minimum shutter speed to stop any dancers. Then, the ISO will stay low if possible and go higher if necessary to properly expose the image...

All of the above. And shoot RAW, not JPG, so that you will have more latitude to boost the image brightness if required..

Rob.

Everyone, everywhere, has to do everything for a first time. There is no failure in failure, only in failing to learn...

How did you botch??.

No flash is the norm for either recital or performance or sport..

You need fast primes... f/1.8 or larger aperture..

ISO at 800, higher if your cam supports it.. a noisy image is *far* better than no image at all... one can help 'noise'....

Shoot RAW... you can underexpose by a stop and recover the brightness on the computer..

Try to keep your shutter speed at 1/60 or better 1/125... if you can keep within a stop of 'good exposure', go as high as you can to stop motion.. if you want to get motion blur - a dragged shutter - in the parlance - go as low as 1/10sec *use a tripod*!!.

Bottom line is to do the best you can do.. there is no 'botch'...

S.**My XT IS Full Frame APS-C/FF of course!*****So is my 5D 35mm/FF**..

Jane,.

You do not tell us enough to help you. Others have already told you what one needs to know..

I do a lot of this sort of thing - theatre and auditorium work using only available light. If you look at my photos on Zenfolio you will get the idea. If you click on individual photos you can get the full exif information about the shot by mousing over the right side of the image..

Specifically I recently took shots of my daughter during a dance show:.

Http://placidod.zenfolio.com/p33268839/.

That gallery is password protected. I will email you the password. I like to be careful with images of young children on the web however innocent they may be..

So what do you need to do?:.

Get a fast zoom lens. Which one will depend on how far away you sit but a good inexpensive lens is the Sigma 24-70 f2.8. I bought mine used off Ebay for about 150. The photos in the gallery above were all taken with it. (I also have a Nikon 80-200 f2.8. That is big, heavy and expensive (400 used off Ebay) but I have used it to good effect to get good close shots from a 2,500 seater auditorium with me at the back.).

Use a monopod with a small ball head or, if you can, a tripod..

Use 1600 ISO (Forget auto ISO your shots will never be less than ISO 1600 to catch the action)..

Use shutter priority and dial the speed up past the point at which the camera tells you the shot is being under-exposed. That should take you to about 1/100th (If it is higher that is fine). Just shoot keeping the camera underexposing by about half a stop. You need to keep the speed up to stop some of the action..

Shoot RAW. You have much more latitude for curing the underexposure and reducing the noise. If you do not have it already get software to process the NEF RAW image. I use Nikon Capture NX. Cheapest place I know to buy it ishttp://www.imagemixer.net - $96. But you could use Adobe Elements.

It is the best and will cost you hardly any more. But if your computer is ancient and under-powered Elements will be a better bet)..

Try to anticipate the action and shoot to catch the paused held move. You will need 1/320th to 1/500th to catch fast action and you will not get that without a faster lens than f2.8..

If your daughter is young and likely to be performing in the same theatre for some years and you can predict your seating (i.e you know the distance from the stage) consider getting a fast prime lens (i.e not a zoom).The 50mm f1.8 is VERY cheap but the 85mm f1.8 might be better. You need to look at the focal length on your zoom shots that you botched to get a feel for which lens your would need. (An f2.8 zoom will be more flexible particularly if she will be performing in different venues).

Ask if you can photograph the dress rehearsal if there is one. You will have more room to get the best shot to suit your lens and to set up a tripod..

Hope that helps.Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Chris Elliott wrote:.

Specifically I recently took shots of my daughter during a dance show:.

Http://placidod.zenfolio.com/p33268839/.

That gallery is password protected. I will email you the password. Ilike to be careful with images of young children on the web howeverinnocent they may be..

Oh, good grief. I think anyone with an unhealthy interest in children will be looking elsewhere online. Why did you post the link if we can't see these low light shots?.

And 'careful' extends to emailing the password to a total stranger? Whom you assumed to be female - but may not be of course....

Alex.

Http://akiralx.smugmug.com/..

Alex Leach wrote:.

Chris Elliott wrote:.

Specifically I recently took shots of my daughter during a dance show:.

Http://placidod.zenfolio.com/p33268839/.

That gallery is password protected. I will email you the password. Ilike to be careful with images of young children on the web howeverinnocent they may be..

Oh, good grief. I think anyone with an unhealthy interest inchildren will be looking elsewhere online. Why did you post the linkif we can't see these low light shots?.

Yes it would probably have been better simply to leave it out of the post and just email it. But I do not need to justify my caution to you. I took photos of my daughter and many other much younger children. I did not have the permisiion of the parents to photograph their children but posted them on Zenfolio with a password so that all parents of children taking part could have the benefit of seeing my shots. Plainly I show those shots to some friends but it is not right to give them too wide an audience without parental permisssion..

There are whole galleries of low light theatre shots on my Zenfolio site most of which do not involve young children (as my post implies) or where I had general permission to shoot. If you had looked you would know that. They illustrate the point equally well. The link specifically is to a dance show..

And 'careful' extends to emailing the password to a total stranger?Whom you assumed to be female - but may not be of course....

This is her first post. Her email address is consistent with her site name. It seems wholly improbable that she would join this forum and post in the way she did if she has an unhealthy interest. There is the world of difference between making a password available to one individual and posting it for all the world to see where one unhealthy individual might see it and pass it on to others who do not view this site..

Unfortunately I have professional experience of the warped minds of paedophiles (including the prostitution of young children by their own grandparents). You plainly you have led a sheltered life and see no need for caution of any kind..

You are welcome to look at my other Zenfolio galleries..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

I'll add a little to what Chris said about photography: stage lighting is/can be dreadfull. The lights are in rows above them and then, at the front, there's light from the spotlights. So you get well lit but dreadfull shadows or a bit of both in one or two places. The trick is to watch them move about the stage and spot where the lighting is good and where it is bad. Then confine your shots to where it is good - which is stating the blindingly obvious: sorry..

Secondly, as Chris has said in every movement - no matter how fast or dramatic - there is a moment of stillness. (They all have to stop for breathe and also for a bit of applause.) Look for that moment and take the picture then..

As for equipment, well, it would be nice (in 35 mm film terms) to have a lens that zoomed from (say) 100 mm to 300mm and was f/2 at the far end but that isn't possible without a NASA style budget*. So look at your equipment and see if it zooms out and closes down to something that only works on bright sunny days, then try and see where the zoom is still reasonable**. The point where it is f/4 at maximum might be a reasonable point to stop zooming; zoom out more and it might be f56 maximum aperture and then f/8 at the far end or worse. Even there you might just get away with a second's exposure and a high ISO and a carefully chosen moment..

BTW, paying for a better seat in the theatre is a lot cheaper than a new camera....

Or, pull rank - you're a mother: you have a right to be at the rehearsal and taking photographs..

Or suggest politely that it might be an idea to let the girls/boys take a breather and pose for photographs during or after the rehearsal. That way everyone might just be happy. They might just allow you up on stage and using flash....

Regards, David.

* If you have a NASA budget, have a look at Olympus' top of the range, where there are f/2 lenses like that... If not look at the old 5 mp Olympus E-20 with the TCON fitted which is 200 mm at f/24 and a little bit of modern software can produce miracles from the old girl in RAW mode (dirt cheap too)..

** That excellent piece of free software called EXIF viewer will do this. Get it from.

Http://home.pacbell.net/michal_k/ and use it to browse all your ballet photo's; then click on the top of the focal length column and it will sort them by focal length used and that will show you the maximum aperture available. It's one of those pieces of freeware that makes you wonder how you-know-who has the cheek to charge for their stuff.....

David Hughes wrote:.

....BTW, paying for a better seat in the theatre is a lot cheaper than anew camera....

Now that is a sensible piece of advice!!.

Sometimes I am lucky enough to be on first name terms with the theatre staff who will let me photograph from a gallery or whatever that is not open to the public! Other times where I am shooting at the express invitation of the production I may encounter a very bureaucratic approach from the theatre managment even though I may have emailed to make arrragements weeks in advance - usually that is in the larger auditoriums. They are very safety concious. Use of a monopod behind the audience is a lot easier to negotiate than the siting of a tripod..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

David Hughes wrote:.

....* If you have a NASA budget, have a look at Olympus' top of therange, where there are f/2 lenses like that... If not look at the old5 mp Olympus E-20 with the TCON fitted which is 200 mm at f/24 and alittle bit of modern software can produce miracles from the old girlin RAW mode (dirt cheap too)..

David,.

This is off topic so a separate post..

I used an E20 for about four years before moving to Nikon last Autumn. I had the TCON teleconvertor. Sadly I did not get much use out of it though I could more recently have found quite a lot of use for an f2.4 prime (You could not really zoom out)..

Unfortunately you had only 3 ISO settings 80, 160 and 320,. The latter was virtually unuseable because of noise. Back then I used the E20 plus FL-40 flash (a wonderrful tool) to shoot theatre productions at the dress rehearsal. I would lose the mood of the theatre lighting but at least I got well lit shots!.

I never did make much use of RAW then. The main reason for doing so would have been to use ISO 320 and available light only. I used Qimage to convert them and that had little control over noise. So I stopped trying. I have since cleaned up a few shots in Capture NX which has improved them massively but I was working very much at the margins then. So I agree with your comments above and wish I had a few more ORF files that I could reprocess now.



ISO 1600 on my D80 is broadly as noisey as ISO 160 was on the E20 shooting jpeg. So I now have a 2.5 stop advantage even allowing for a slower f2.8 lens. But shooting RAW I can push shots more effectively taking me to about ISO 2400. That 3 stop advantage makes all the difference for theatre work..

Regards.

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

I took this with a Pentax DS and sigma 17-70 @ F4, ISO 800. It helps to boost ISO and have a faster lens. I set the Auto Focus to continuakl to speed things up as well..

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Shoot RAW in low light. It's a safety net to allow better recovery. It won't work miracles, but it's a help sometimes..

Ideally use a good lens with as good an aperture as possible. However this is not a necessity and it would be better to see your photos to get an idea of what you mean by botched. Don't be embarrassed - everyone makes mistakes all the time, including the pros..

On a DSLR you can crank up ISO. On a D50 you can really go as high as you like for normal sized prints..

Ensure you have suitable white balance. Ideally set it manually ( custom mode ). Don't be surprised if this needs to be adjusted in post processing. This is one of the main reasons to shoot RAW, as it gives better results in post procesisng..

StephenG.

Fuji S9600Fuji S5200Fuji F30Fuji E900Canon A710ISPCLinuxOS..

Chris Elliott wrote:.

David Hughes wrote:.

....* If you have a NASA budget, have a look at Olympus' top of therange, where there are f/2 lenses like that... If not look at the old5 mp Olympus E-20 with the TCON fitted which is 200 mm at f/24 and alittle bit of modern software can produce miracles from the old girlin RAW mode (dirt cheap too)..

David,.

This is off topic so a separate post..

I used an E20 for about four years before moving to Nikon lastAutumn. I had the TCON teleconvertor. Sadly I did not get much useout of it though I could more recently have found quite a lot of usefor an f2.4 prime (You could not really zoom out)..

Yup. I agree but most of my shots worked well with it. It was a case of having to adapt to it because I couldn't afford a better one when they became available. well, I could afford it but my wife insists on eating (sometimes twice a day... ). And when the E-10/20's came out the competition was a lot dearer, which again locked me into it.

I've got a lot of 32" x 24" aviation shots out of it/her..

Unfortunately you had only 3 ISO settings 80, 160 and 320,. Thelatter was virtually unuseable because of noise. Back then I used theE20 plus FL-40 flash (a wonderrful tool) to shoot theatre productionsat the dress rehearsal. I would lose the mood of the theatrelighting but at least I got well lit shots!.

Agree but my shots were planned and carefully planned at that and so I didn't have too many problems. But I didn't take too many shots either..

I never did make much use of RAW then. The main reason for doing sowould have been to use ISO 320 and available light only. I usedQimage to convert them and that had little control over noise. So Istopped trying. I have since cleaned up a few shots in Capture NXwhich has improved them massively but I was working very much at themargins then. So I agree with your comments above and wish I had afew more ORF files that I could reprocess now.



I do know the feeeling....

ISO 1600 on my D80 is broadly as noisey as ISO 160 was on the E20shooting jpeg. So I now have a 2.5 stop advantage even allowing for aslower f2.8 lens. But shooting RAW I can push shots more effectivelytaking me to about ISO 2400. That 3 stop advantage makes all thedifference for theatre work..

Well, I do more aviation (hobby) than ballet (granddaughter) these days and have moved on to the E-500 though it was forced on me by the finances of this old couple of pensioners. I would have preferred the E-1 or it's replacement but that's the way it goes. One aspect I didn't appreciate with the E-10/20 + TCON set up was that not being able to zoom is an advantage in aviation. 200mm is about right because 300mm can result in clipping the wings and other framing problems with fast moving aircraft. (Also not zooming means less to worry/think about when thngs are happening fast and I do mean fast.) 200mm might be wastefull but the 'plane will be in the frame and not just flying half out of it. And I do miss that f24 maximum..

Regards, David..

No text: what else can I say?.

Regards, David..

Thanks! I did shoot JPEG, by the way. The 6MP Sony sensor used in the 6MP Nikon and Pentax models has good Dynamic Range and depending on the camera model can give great results in JPEG. RAW can end up being more useful for adjusting white balance and handling extreme contrasts. For stage, I have been shooting JPEG with no lost photos due to DR limitations..

I would not mind having anti shake and the new SDM lenses would give me faster AF. Maybe I need a K100D Special..

I used a Sigma 17-70 set at F4 for the bigger kids and a Tokina 80-200/4 for the little kids. A couple lenses I am considering are the Pentax 50-135/2.8 SDM or the Sigma 70-200/2.8. The Tokina 50-135 uses the same Pentax optical formula...

Any more like this? My wife is raving about it....

Regards, David..

David Hughes wrote:.

Any more like this? My wife is raving about it....

Regards, David.

Chinese dancers, *istDS, Sigma 17-70 F4, ISO 1600..

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More Chinese Dancers, *istDS, Tokina 80-200/4 F4, ISO 800.

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K1000Photographer wrote:.

David Hughes wrote:.

Any more like this? My wife is raving about it....

Regards, David.

Chinese dancers, *istDS, Sigma 17-70 F4, ISO 1600..

More Chinese Dancers, *istDS, Tokina 80-200/4 F4, ISO 800.

Lovely photos!.

Can I ask how many frames are on the cutting room floor so to speak? I suspect there will be a lot of them which is no criticism of you! Are all shots at the same venue? The lighting seems to be very good..

The OP botched (her words) photos of her daughter. When you have shots you must get I would not feel happy with anything other than equipment capable of f2.8..

I also use the Sigma 17-70 - lovely colours. At the theatre I use it to cover 17-24mm where it is almost a constant f2.8 but more usually I have my Sigma 24-70 f2.8 in use..

Some public arenas have very decent lighting but it is not the norm. The Bridgewater Hall in Manchester is an example.

D80 & Sigma 24-70 f2.8 at 24mm f2.8 1/200th ISO 1600 on a monopod.(The colour cast centre right is a reflection off the organ pipes).

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The centre stage is well lit but I had to work at bringing up the luminance in the areas occupied by the choir in shadow..

Simon Keenlyside singing at the same concert..

Nikon 80-200 f2.8 at f2.8 1/200th ISO 1600 at 165mm (but cropped from landscape to portrait) on a monopod..

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(Note that the conductor's hand is still a blur even at 1/200th).

The lighting at this venue is constant. In a theatre it is usually much more low key and varies from minute to minute not only in intensity but also colour..

Chris Elliott.

*Nikon* D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile.

Http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/..

Thanks for both sets. I mentioned my wife's demands for food stopping me getting my favourite lens; for the record the negotiations are sticking at one meal every other day....

Thanks again, David..

F2.8 would be nice but F4 has been my goal, so far. I had the Sigma 17-70 at F4 most of the time on the photos I took, and used my $10 Tokina 80-200 at a wide open F4 as well. However, I have no reservation about shooting at ISO 800 and will use ISO 1600 when needed, with good results..

Lighting varies. At the performance where I shot the jumping dancers, the light was good at the start but then dropped 2 full stops as it went on. That would be like having 4 lightbulbs of the same wattage in a room and later turning off 3..

The Chinese dance performance where I made the shot at ISO 1600, the lighting was good for a few dances but was usually quite dark. An F2.8 lens would not have helped much. I took over 100 shots and came out with maybe 5 keepers. It got so dark that ISO 1600, F2.8 would still get me shutter speeds of 1/13 at times. It was darker than shooting in a typical home at night..

The last 2 shots were taken at a performance where the light was decent. I used ISO 800, F4 and shutter speeds of about 1/50 - 1/100 most of the time. All handheld. I took about 300 shots and most were keepers. AS would have helped..

You really are at the mercy of whoever is doing the lighting. If they know what they are doing, you can get good light but you may still need to keep the ISO between 800 and 1600. Sometimes, you get some kid who barely turns anything on and there is not a camera on earth that will get those shots...