This is an extremely frequently asked question. You've provided fewer criteria than most (such as nothing about what you plan to use it for)..

Beginner's Forum, past few dayshttp://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23626449http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23631993http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23650446http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23646377http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23633199http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23634421http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23636888http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23637514http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23557664http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23610396http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23586674http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1002&message=23405692.

Open Talk, past few days:http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=23641615http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=23619111http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=23634331http://forums.dpreview.com/...forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=23575352..

Sorry about that. I will read through these other threads but will also provide further details in this post so it's not totally useless..

I am new to the DSLR scene. I enjoy photography and have enjoyed pushing my p&s to it's limits to get the best possible pictures. I was looking at the Panasonic FZ8 and the S3 IS but after months of research, it does not appear that these cameras improve that drastically on the limitations I am currently experiencing with my Powershot A520 (namely noise, poor low light performance, fringing, lens distortion, lack of RAW, poor high contrast capabilities, etc)..

I plan to use this camera for everything from p&s to carefully composed landscapes and art shots. I love taking low-light shots without a flash, as my favorite times to take pictures are during and after sunset and before-during sun-rise..

Since I will be using this camera as much (or more) for everyday picture taking (i.e. traveling, family pictures) as I will for the more artsy shots, I need something that will give me the best of both worlds with decent automatic features alongside solid manual controls and features..

Thanks for your help and sorry for the lack of info in the first part of this thread..

Brad..

If the site search feature is down, you can always do an advanced search on Google for results from domain http://forums.dpreview.com..

You should read through the reviews, and use the search in the forum. You'll see plenty of discussion of these cameras..

Frankly, all budget DSLRs are very similar in capability. They all come with 3x (ish) kit lenses, and have very good image quality. They all have different scene modes, since they're aimed at consumers, as well as full manual modes. You'll get excellent photos out of all of them, as you can see from the reviews on this site..

There may be small differences in handling, viewfinders and performance, but they're all very, very similar. The only difference is that you'll be buying in to an entire DSLR system, which includes lenses. If you like prime lenses, then go for Pentax, which has by far the coolest lineup of prime lenses. If you fancy yourself getting into sports photography someday, then Canon and Nikon are the best bets. If you like tiny cameras, or work in very dusty conditions, Olympus is a very good choice..

I would actually recommend that you try out these cameras in the store, buy the DSLR with a kit lens, and then take a good photography course. The course (which should cover composition, concepts of exposure, and basic lighting) will get you far better results than spending tons of $$$ on DSLR bodies and lenses. If a decent course isn't available, then join a local photography club. You'll learn plenty from others, especially if you put your photos up for critique..

Hope this helps, and good luck..

Booorad wrote:.

Sorry about that. I will read through these other threads but willalso provide further details in this post so it's not totallyuseless..

I am new to the DSLR scene. I enjoy photography and have enjoyedpushing my p&s to it's limits to get the best possible pictures. Iwas looking at the Panasonic FZ8 and the S3 IS but after months ofresearch, it does not appear that these cameras improve thatdrastically on the limitations I am currently experiencing with myPowershot A520 (namely noise, poor low light performance, fringing,lens distortion, lack of RAW, poor high contrast capabilities, etc)..

I plan to use this camera for everything from p&s to carefullycomposed landscapes and art shots. I love taking low-light shotswithout a flash, as my favorite times to take pictures are duringand after sunset and before-during sun-rise..

Since I will be using this camera as much (or more) for everydaypicture taking (i.e. traveling, family pictures) as I will for themore artsy shots, I need something that will give me the best ofboth worlds with decent automatic features alongside solid manualcontrols and features..

Thanks for your help and sorry for the lack of info in the firstpart of this thread..

Brad..

Boorad:.

Tycfung is right on target. Any intro DSLR will take great pictures, especially if you go to the trouble to truly learn photography and photoprocessing. There are numerous good sites on the WWW at which you can begin learning. Enjoy your new hobby!.

Jerry..

Booorad wrote:.

It looks like I might need to consider an SLR. I am just notsatisfied with the image quality in a broad range of lightconditions that any of compact or bridge cameras have to offer. Iam currently selling a bunch of stuff on ebay so I can purchase anew camera. My budget, therefore, will be determined by how muchmoney I get from the stuff I am selling. So I would like to pose atwo part question. If I am in the XTi, D40x, E-410 price range,which camera is the best (excluding lens).

Does one of them stand out as far as thesensor goes? Secondly, if I am in the EOS 30D, D80, etc. pricerange which camera is the best (including lens)?.

Thanks for your help!.

Brad.

In that budget you should add the Sony A100 to your list.It has a nice sized viewfinder for the price range.

Features llike spot metering, and auto bracketing not always on some of the others in this range..

Lots of lens support for this level of DSLR both Sony, 3rd party, and used Minolta AF lenses..

Ken - KM 5Dhttp://www.cascadephotoworks.com..

There is no such thing as a "best SLR body". If there was, it would be the EOS 1D Mk III or the D2x..

Besides, on further reading, you were really asking about an entry-level dSLR body. There are some OK entry-level bodies, but to get the price down, something HAD to be left out..

There is also no such thing as "best entry-level SLR body". There is simply TOO much personal opinion about aesthetics, ergonomics, and what my friends use. It's very much like asking, "What is the best car to buy?" Or, "What is the best under $10,000 car?" They are almost oxymoron's, like "under $10,000" and "best" cause SLR experts to hyperventilate!.

Whatever....

As others have said, it's important to hold and try any candidate camera. Also, pick the lens first, then the body. And if low-light and low-noise are considerations for you, then avoid the trend to buy the most MP you can (6 MP is all you need for most pix)..

Charlie DavisNikon 5700 & Sony R1CATS #25PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htmHomePage: http://www.1derful.info'I brake for pixels...'..

Like it has been said a load of times. They're all good, they're all a bit different. Handle a few in a shop and pick your fav.Don't wait for the Nikon D-whatever, have fun now!http://www.flickr.com/photos/j_wijnands/..

You should definately check them out in person. I would like to say that you might consider Olympus other than when you you need a tiny camera or are working in dust. Olympus makes some of the best lenses out there and in the budget DSLR area offers the best kit lenses at a better price.If you like low light photography the in body IS good high ISO performance, the option to use live view to compose shots in low light and quality kit lenses the E-510 offers is worth considering. Olympus also offers a large selection of digital lenses of the highest quality...

Chuxter wrote:.

And if low-light and low-noise are considerations for you, then avoid the trend to buy the most MP you can (6 MP is all you need for most pix)..

Hi Charlie,.

I'm debating between 6 MP and 10 MP myself, and low-light IS a consideration for me...is there a downside to having more vs. less MP (other than larger image size)?Thanks!Ann..

I agree to a certain extent about the MP count in that for an entry level DSLR. There are more important things to consider. At the same time, the noise issue is overblown by some..

Take the lessons that have been recommended above and learn to make correct exposures and the noise will never be an issue for 6, 8 or 10 MP DSLRs. If you do a lot of cropping, the 10mp might be worth the consideration. For me it was worth the jump..

The old saw about the noise being that much greater is just not as big an issue as it used to be..

Some of my Observations about the entry level cameras, since few offer this above:.

Nikon D40 - I am a Nikon guy and own both a D50 and a D200. The D40 is a cool camera, but it is crippled even compared to the competition. Particularly, it won't use many of the legacy lenses' AF and a large number Aftermarket lenses can only be focused manually. Still, it is Nikon with great build and some of the best Ergonomics. In my opinion, you would be better served - if you want to go Nikon - to find a D50... they can still be found new for about the same price or less than a D40..

Canon Rebel XTI(400) - Awesome camera for the $$$. Weakest kit lens of the bunch though. Better to buy a body and get a better lens. Cannon does have great lenses and better noise control at high ISO than most of the competition. That being said, it is only about a 1/2 stop difference in the newer cameras. It is not as much an issue as many want you to think.



Pentax- K100, K110, K10D. All great cameras. If you are going to step up a bit, get a K10D(or Nikon D80.) I believe that with the kit lense, this sucker is well below $1000 American. Great lenses as the guy mentioned above, they have some very cool primes, awesome customer support..

Olympus. In another life(translated the 80's) I shot OM1,2 and 10 cameras and loved them! I almost went with Olympus except for the wide angle issue of the 4/3 system. Crop factor is 2x and while great for telephoto, leaves something to be desired at the wide end(to get 18mm WA, you need a 9mm lens). But as far as bang for the buck, the E410 sure looks hard to beat. Live view, option for Leica lenses and light weight, fast long lenses(35-100 f/2 for example), make it a great option as well..

Sony Alpha - I am not a big fan of this camera. It is significant, because it means that Sony is now playing in the DSLR world, but it felt to me like a warmed over Minolta. Ergonomics are big for me and they were just not there. I look forward to seeing what comes next, but for an entry level camera, the other four are all better. In fact, if you want a 10.2 MP Sony sensor camera, you are better off getting the Nikon D80 which has the same sensor, but - in my opinion - much better in the way of image quality..

So these are all opinions. To me, the deciding factor was how it felt in hand and held to my eye. All of these cameras, including the Alpha, are capable of doing an awesome job. Two suggestions, don't shy away from 10MP if that is what you want and try before you buy. the camera is like a shoe, it should fit. Lastly, cdonsider lenses as part of your equation.

Especially if you become a sharpness addict like many on these forums are! .

Good luckRog..

I print 13x19 from my 6MP and am very happy with the prints.. but would not go larger..

My Low light perfomance beats the 10MP hands down. The 8 MP Canons will also beat the 10 MP cameras..

I personally like the Sony design, but that's because I think the Minolta design was excellent so "wamring it over" was a good thing. It does bring noise because they applied very little noise reduction to the output. It can be done in software..

The D40 could just be called "warmed over Nikon design".. but if you like Nikon many people are very happy with this camera..

Shopping for the most camera for the Money now I would choose the Sony A100. There are several features it has that are not on the Nikons or Canons in the Sub $800 price range..

If had more money for stablized lenses.. my next choice would be the Canon 30D..

I prefer detail over noise reduction that polishes away detail..

In the first three price rangers I llike.

The Sony A100the Canon 30DThe Canon 5D..

It will come down to preferences... But if you print 8.5x11 or smaller 6MP is more than enough so you can consider them. too..

I do agree if you want to go Nikon.. D80 is the place to start. but I am not a fan of Nikon for lots of reasons. That doesn't mean they won't take excellent pictures. They will..

Ken - KM 5Dhttp://www.cascadephotoworks.com..

AnnK wrote:.

Chuxter wrote:And if low-light and low-noise are considerations for you, thenavoid the trend to buy the most MP you can (6 MP is all you needfor most pix)..

Hi Charlie,I'm debating between 6 MP and 10 MP myself, and low-light IS aconsideration for me...is there a downside to having more vs. lessMP (other than larger image size)?.

Absolutely! That's why I made the above statement. For low-noise, you want the BIGGEST photosites possible. Manufacturers and review sites (with manufacturers ads) work hard to keep you from knowing this!.

I have yet to see ANY manufacturer or major review site tell customers/readers what the photosite area is. However, both provide the information to compute the photosite area. For example, take the Nikon D40 and D40x....

The D40 has a sensor size of 23.7mm x 15.5mm (367.35mm^2). Divide that area by 6,000,000 and you get a photosite size of 61 microns^2..

The D40x has a sensor size of 23.7mm x 15.6mm (369.72mm^2). Divide that area by 10,000,000 and you get a photosite size of 37 microns^2..

The D40x has a photosite area that is 40% [(61-37)/61=.4] less than the D40. I contend that if you compare RAW shots at identical settings, the D40 will have 65% [(61-37)/37] less noise than the D40x..

When you set these cameras to save as JPEG, it's a different story, as BOTH cameras apply noise reduction (NR) to JPEG pix. The D40x uses a heavier dose than the D40, so the noise looks similar. BUT, the D40x image is "smeared" by the the NR algorithm (it's unavoidable) and thus you don't get as much resolution as 10MP vs 6MP would imply..

My belief (backed up by LOTS of data) is that, given a specific sensor size, after you pass some minimum MP (such as 4), the Image Quality (IQ) is constant, regardless of the number of MP. I know, that seems counter-intuitive....

The most often heard objection is that if MP wasn't important, why would manufacturers stress MP in ads. The answer is cynical and simple: To sell more cameras. .

The above radical statement needs some qualification. It assumes that as MP increases, the manufacturers adjust their NR algorithms to remove some of the increased noise w/o destroying TOO much detail in the process. In practice, it's easier to increase MP on a fixed sensor size than to devise NR algorithms that both lower noise and retain detail. Consider also that there are LOTS of advanced NR algorithms that run on our home PC boxes, but they are S L O W, even with the massive power of these appliances; cameras don't have that much computing horsepower! The manufacturers have to select simple, fast algorithms....

Thus, at BEST, the D40x will have the SAME IQ as the D40. That's the good news. The bad news is that it also costs $200 more and has file sizes that are about 50% bigger. In spite of this, there is more good news: Nikon has made the D40x 15% faster and to have 11% better battery life. I guess that's one of the things your $200 buys..

Bottom Line: If you want better low-light, high-ISO sensitivity performance, get the D40..

Charlie DavisNikon 5700 & Sony R1CATS #25PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htmHomePage: http://www.1derful.info'I brake for pixels...'..

My belief (backed up by LOTS of data) is that, given a specificsensor size, after you pass some minimum MP (such as 4), the ImageQuality (IQ) is constant, regardless of the number of MP. I know,that seems counter-intuitive....

Well that's discouraging...makes me wonder why I'm doing all this research to upgrade from my 5 MP P&S to DSLR!.

Thanks for the info,Ann..

AnnK wrote:.

My belief (backed up by LOTS of data) is that, given a specificsensor size, after you pass some minimum MP (such as 4), the ImageQuality (IQ) is constant, regardless of the number of MP. I know,that seems counter-intuitive....

Well that's discouraging...makes me wonder why I'm doing all thisresearch to upgrade from my 5 MP P&S to DSLR!.

Thanks for the info,Ann.

The key comment is "given a specific sensor size". DSLR's have much bigger sensors than P&S cameras, so they're all working from a much better position in terms of sharpness and noise. There's all kinds of sniping and pixel-peeping going on between different DSLR brand fans, but it's in a completely different world than P&S cameras..

My take is that budget DSLR's have excellent image quality. The more expensive ones have marginally better image quality but much better construction and some useful added features..

Leonard Migliore..

In just about evey city you will find a camera store that rents out dslr's. Consider renting a model that you are interested in such as the Rebel XTI or D40, or what ever captures your interest. Try it out for a day in real world testing with your family and base your decision on that. Oh, it dosn't hurt to read the reviews on this site and others as well..

Good luck and have a great time with your new camera.http://www.pbase.com/mikesf..

Leonard Migliore wrote:.

AnnK wrote:.

My belief (backed up by LOTS of data) is that, given a specificsensor size, after you pass some minimum MP (such as 4), the ImageQuality (IQ) is constant, regardless of the number of MP. I know,that seems counter-intuitive....

Well that's discouraging...makes me wonder why I'm doing all thisresearch to upgrade from my 5 MP P&S to DSLR!.

Don't be discouraged! Read what Leonard said. He's quite right..

Thanks for the info,.

You are welcome..

The key comment is "given a specific sensor size". DSLR's have muchbigger sensors than P&S cameras, so they're all working from a muchbetter position in terms of sharpness and noise. There's all kindsof sniping and pixel-peeping going on between different DSLR brandfans, but it's in a completely different world than P&S cameras..

My take is that budget DSLR's have excellent image quality. Themore expensive ones have marginally better image quality but muchbetter construction and some useful added features..

I'll add that the entry-level dSLRs seem to have stronger processing (sharpness, saturation, etc) because the market is primarily people like you who are migrating from small-sensor cameras..

[aside].

I try not to use "P&S" because a D40 is, IMO, the ultimate P&S and even an EOS 1D Mk III has a fully automatic mode! I prefer "Compact", but even that is problematic, as it's quite subjective. My current list is, "Pocket", "Consumer", "Amateur", "Prosumer", "Bridge SLR", "Small SLR", "Entry SLR", "Semi-Pro SLR", and "Professional SLR".[end aside].

As Leonard says, there are differences in build quality. Unfortunately, the bottom end of the SLR ranks are mostly plastic. They are probably best viewed as disposable..

Also, the size, shape and ergonomics are different. I know they all look much the same, but if you handle them, these differences will become apparent. That's your job: to find one that fits your hands and has buttons where they make sense to you! Reviewers like Phil do a great job of telling us how these factors fit HIM, but I'm different and I'll bet you are too..

Picking a camera is only confusing if you try to do it via the internet. Get out there and troll through your FLCS....

Charlie DavisNikon 5700 & Sony R1CATS #25PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htmHomePage: http://www.1derful.info'I brake for pixels...'..